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  1. #1
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    There was just another little 5-year-old girl snatched from around here today. The girl that was snatched about 2 weeks ago and managed to chew through the duct tape and get away is from this area. The latest one was taken from her home in the middle of the night last night. The Grandmother said the girl was there when she went to sleep at 1 AM, but when she woke up this morning the back door was open and the little girl gone.

    It's like that case in California started some sort of epidemic.

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  2. #2
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    Two in the UK too.

    If I could keep track of my dog using a proximity bleeper it can't be that much more difficult with kids can it? You can track a stolen car with a satellite these days and triangulate the position of a mobile.

    Yet kids are left with less protection than a reasonably expensive car.


    I

    [ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: Icicle ]

  3. #3
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    Kidnapping of children happens every day, it just the "news story of the moment" I saw on CNN a few days ago that kidnapping cases are actually down. They also talked about how news agencies get certain stories and the rest follow suit. Past news stories such as shark attacks, road rage etc. There has to be a lot harsher penalties for those that mess with children

  4. #4
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    Keeping track of kids with some kind of Lojack-like device has one hitch that cars don't:

    Young kids lose things...
    They also go out to play and break things, especially if those things were sewn into their clothes or something. Just one fall onto the hard ground, or a push into a tree, and CRACK! End of Lojack-For-Kids module.

    And when they get old enough to know that the bleeper means that Mommy & Daddy can track their every move, including those they *don't* want known, they would lose those things on purpose!

    No matter how many warnings they're given, a well-adjusted kid tends to think s/he's invincible, so ditching the Electronic Big Brother would be an almost instinctual response.

    Therefore I think the solution would need something more than a proximity bleeper. Even the youngest kid may accidentally break their device, or the batteries may run out--and the fact that it had become inoperative wouldn't be known until it was too late.

  5. #5
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    We are certainly getting more of them in *my* area. We're getting attempts almost daily and a missing child every week or two.


    When kids are being taken from their own homes, sadly I don't know if there's much more can be done about it except to make sure you can get them back. The Amber system seems to be working well in the states that use it but could be made better. One possible improvement that's little gruesome sounding - but not as bad as kidnap, rape, murder - is to have a chip implanted. It's currently being used for Alzthiemer's and other dimentia patients as they've got a tendency to wander off and disappear. The chip is embedded in their shoulders with all the personal information. I don't know if there's any sort of tracking device, but it wouldn't be too difficult to have a small beeper transmitter embedded that sends out a short-range signal that can be picked up by local police radio.


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  6. #6
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    Leader,
    That's true ... older kids would try and ditch the device , or ,like my son , would be so amazed at the technology that it would become his favorite toy - put it on the cat , etc. IF they know it's there !

    The key to something like this working would be to keep it a total SECRET - they would have NO IDEA they are wearing one !

    It just makes me so sick when I hear these things happening , and to little girls almost as young as my daughter - still babies .

    When we were at Disney World, I couldn't enjoy myself . The recent kidnappings had me so scared, plus my brother's warning about how many crimes/kidnappings happen on Disney property, that will NEVER make the news ( to protect the tourist industry) , I couldn't even turn my head for a split second from my "almost 3" year old daughter, and my son too , somewhat.

    That, plus the (new) security tents at the gate , as all pocketbooks, camera bags, etc. were checked , brought me to tears thinking about 9/11 , the bastards who were responsible, and how it is still possible for a kidnapper or terrorist to walk right past Disney security , so long as they are not carrying a bag . It was like the security was more of a "show" than anything else .

    I did the Magic Kingdom with racoon eyes
    ( from runny eye liner ), and a tight grip on my baby girl. This is not how the world is supposed to be.

    Lisa

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador mousejockey's Avatar
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    Perhaps someone should invent a device that could be implanted in a tooth?

    Just realized their baby teeth fall out...mmm
    in the ear like pedigree dogs [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    [ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: mousejockey ]

  8. #8
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    >No matter how many warnings they're given, a well-adjusted kid tends to think s/he's invincible, so ditching the Electronic Big Brother would be an almost instinctual response.

    Leader, you are absolutely right of course. And its certainly what I would have done soon as I realised the Parents couldn't be trusted with it. But by the time a kid gets to that age they are about ready for a mobile phone and that can be used to track them.

    I don't see it as a problem for younger ones though. It takes a while before the finer points of their civil rights sink in! And devices like this get smaller and more durable every day.

    I think the main technical problem would be powering the device. I don't know if there is a power source small enough yet, but if it was set to emit a bleep only every few minutes the drain could be minimised.

    One way to get around the natural reluctance of the child would be to have a device that only emits a signal when the child tells it to. As in 'look at this pretty necklace hunny - if you are ever in trouble and want us to come and get you, you just turn this'.


    I

    [ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: Icicle ]

  9. #9
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    Lisa, Sorry but I must grin! I remember grade school quite clearly, and can say with certainty that there is no such thing as a "parental secret" past 3rd grade. The second one kid in the place figures something that's supposed to be secret out, they blab it to the entire school! Schools have about the fastest grapevines in existance [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ...and age differences don't count because of siblings passing info between the grades.

    As for an implanted chip, I could see way too much potential for governmental misuse. If someone didn't bother to get their chip out when they grew up, they would then be a monitorable subject until they did! *Brrrr!*

    Actually I think the tooth-chip would be a good idea since a kid is usually quite big by the time the last baby tooth falls out. By that age, she/he could have learned a lot more about avoiding kidnapping...and once they grew up they wouldn't have to go to the trouble of getting their chips out to be sure they wouldn't be monitored forever!

  10. #10
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    "I think the tooth-chip would be a good idea since a kid is usually quite big by the time the last baby tooth falls out."

    I think it might be more significant when the first one falls out, since nobody knows which will be the last one to go.

  11. #11
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    Actually my dentist has a big chart with the general order that they fall out, but being way beyond the age of caring, I didn't memorize it. However I don't think he would have a chart if the teeth fell out randomly--too many irate parents would be mad if it was bogus!

    Here's from the Wisconsin Dental Association:

    "Generally, the lower two teeth fall out first, followed by the upper front teeth. From there, they usually fall out down the line, from front to back, again starting on the lower jaw. Upper teeth should come in on the outside of the baby teeth, while lower teeth should come in on the inside."

    So it seems fairly predictable even though there are probably a few exceptions to the rule.

  12. #12
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    Why are we even talking as if we are designing some new device ?

    It's all ready out there ....but when ? where ? how much is it ? how do you go about getting one on your children ?
    Well, I found one [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
    Here it is, and it's affordable too ...
    It's a wristwatch !
    http://www.digitalangel.net/default.asp


    Lisa

    [ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: Lisa ]

  13. #13
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    Thats promising but 1) coverage is only about 10% of the US. 2) If things are anything like the UK $30 a month is all some people have to feed their kids let alone track them.


    When the subscription is $5 per month and coverage 80% though...


    I

  14. #14
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    Icicle , I know the coverage lacks , and it is a bit high for many families , but from looking at the coverage area map, it could have helped Danielle van Dam and Elizabeth Smart (they would have had to wear the watch to bed , though ) It's a start, and they have to start somewhere, though , and this does look like a promising product/service in a sick world.

    I'm going to call the company tommorrow and ask some questions, and have a serious talk with my son and husband tonight . I might just get one of these gizmos and try it out [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    Lisa

  15. #15
    ABW Ambassador mousejockey's Avatar
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    A similar type of tracking they implant in wild birds and animals (it's tiny) could be implanted in little kids pretty cheaply if not for free if governments and people got behind it.
    Not only would you be able to track your kids, but it would certainly save police resources.

    Necklaces, watches are removable and kids do have a tendancy to change clothes and swap things, but if it's in a tooth or earlobe, they can't get at it and wouldn't even know it's there.

  16. #16
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    Let us know how you get on.

    I'm thinking this would be great for the UK as its densely populated, with very few large areas of Nothing Much.

    Is there a problem in the US with mobile phone coverage in general?


    I

  17. #17
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    Once coverage is 80%... what kidnapper won't know to remove any watches/jewelry/etc from his victim?

  18. #18
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    Where I live, we have had some high profile cases in court lately.
    One of them involves a friend of mine who's daughter was abducted and eventually found dead. The person who abducted her was known to the family, although not very well.
    This highlights one of the problems today. The majority of abductions are NOT stranger abductions. They are known to the families. As such, having a watch or piece of jewellery with some form of cell technology in my mind is not infallible. They will know. The parents will say something, the kids will figure it out and say something, etc. Friends and family will know.
    BUT, if there was a way to do this, where the jewellery/watch/whatever could not be removed, then that would be the way to go.
    Someone earlier mentioned placing something in a baby tooth. The concern was it falling out and being lost.

    Here's my thought. Mass produce the mothers. Parents check the childrens teeth periodically. If it is lost, and production costs are reduced due to the manufacturing of large quatities of them, you just get another.

    Or another route( similar to what was discussed here ) you give your child a watch. Inside is a minature GPS. Satellite coverage is generaly better than cellular. The system they demonstrated was snug on the childs wrist and was VERY adaptable to accomdate people of all sizes.
    The clincher... it would not come off.
    Apparently you can pull and pry that puppy and it will not release. If it is shattered (it is shatterproof, waterproof and something else I can't remember) , or if some way to remove it is found ( I would say what they said but its too morbid ) then the signal would immeadiatly be sent, with the last recorded position tracked.

    A lot of people say it won't happen to us and it does. They say, because the stories are plastered in the media people are getting panicky and such a small percentage of the population ever have something horrible like this happen. To those people I say this.

    I have two children. Combined they dont make up a fraction of a percentage of the population. Does that mean if they go missing it's ok? Don't panic, it won't happen to you comments piss me off.

    In my life (Just turned 31 a few days ago) I have seen, helped with, or known people personally who have dealt with the following;

    1))) Friend in school had his sister abducted and (presummed killed - never found)

    2))) Daughter of a man my father worked with in Montreal was walking down the street when a car drove up beside her. He said something about getting in the car, but her friends caught up to her at about that time and he took off.

    3))) 2 Searches for missing children while I was in high school, 1 was just lost and the other was taken, but eventually found ok.

    4))) Woman I hired, worked with and became friends with had her daughter abducted from her ex's house in the middle of the day, found dead later.

    This year experienced 2 lost child events,

    5))) 1 at a local park where my wife, my two kids and I followed a little girl for
    35 minutes
    with some St. Johns Ambulance workers we found and asked to help us. The whole time we looked and asked every person we came across if it ws their child. Only 2 other people offered to help us, and the park worker we told to get some help actually walked away after 5 minutes.
    By the time the police arrived 45 minutes had passed and it was shortly thereafter the St'Johns Ambulance found the guardian at a concession stand eating.

    6))) The other event this year was a little boy about 3 years old walking out of a Toy's R Us. I was with my 4 year old daugher at the time. Heres the thing with that. While everyone in that store, and I do mean everyone was looking, the boy had walked out by himself onto one of the busiest streets in the area and had gone nearly half a block by himself. Toys R Us staff did great in doing their code blue or whatever its called, but he was out the door before anyone even noticed. They think he walked out with another family. which is why he wasnt noticed.

    7))) One of my wife's best friends and her husband were walking their dog, when they discovered a trailer a couple of years back. The trailer was burning, and inside was the body of a little girl who had been abducted a few days earlier. By someone the family had staying at their house.

    8))) Lastly, right now there is a 13 year old girl missing. Police say they believe she has just run away, but it has been a few days now.

    I am sorry for the large post. This is a pretty touchy subject with me. Some of the events I listed were jsut kids lost. The tracking system would help them in addition to the abducted children.

    Do I think a watch with a GPS or cell tracking system will help save all the children? No. Educating them, educating the families and public will probably do more. BUT I am willing to bet these techie systems will save a few. To me that makes it worthwhile.

    Bug their teeth, wire their jewellery, and so help me god if one lawyer says " but what about their right to privacy?" I'll smack them.

    What about my right to protect my children? What about their right to safety?

    If one child is saved with one of these ideas great. If 10 children are saved because of a 1000 ideas like these, fantastic.
    If a hundred children are saved because molesters realize that 9 out of 10 children in Canada and the US are wired, Hallelujah!!!

    For those of you who think you'll just move away from the city, heres another quick point.
    4 of the events above happened in "Big Cities" in Canada - Montreal and Vancouver
    The remaining 4 events happend in smaller towns and suburbs throughout the west coast of BC.
    This happens everywhere, to all kinds of people.

    The question posted as the topic was "When Will It End?"
    I am going to sound more pessimistic than I usually am when I say this, but I don't think it ever will.
    There will always be predators out there. All we can do is limit the opportunities they have to access our children. We can do this through deterence, education, and community.

    Deterence - Make the tools to protect our children, the laws to secure their rights and make both accessable to everyone.
    Education - Educate children on what to do, how to act and how to not leave themselves vulnerable. Also educate the offenders that they will not get away with these crimes because of the tools and laws in place.
    Community - Make protecting children a community priority. If EVERYONE works together then what the first two items don't catch, the community will.

    Again sorry for the long post, and I hope this makes sense to someone out there. I don't know why I had t write this, but I feel like I really needed to.
    Thanks all and take care. Especially of your kids.

    PD

  19. #19
    Millionaire on training wheels Justdoit's Avatar
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    Children are our future. It is too bad that society has come to this and there is a lot that we can't do about it.
    I'm an hour away from a major city of 2 million and here in this town with a population of 45,000 it is still scary living here.
    My 16 yr old daughter has been the attempted victim of 3 abductions in the last 2 years all in broad daylight all within a mile of home. All 3 times she managedged to get away due to having taken karate since she was 6.
    My 12 yr old son is a very sensitive kid, he is big for his age, knows karate as well, but is now scared to walk to the corner store 5 blocks away by himself. He will only go if there is a group of friends going with him.
    My 4 yr old is very friendly and outgoing, and is fearful of strangers for the most part, but I have her in eyesight or right beside me all the time.
    That is what today's society has done. Being up at all hours to pick up the oldest from her job at the grocery, getting up at dawn to help my son deliver his papers, and never more than 20 feet away from my youngest at the park. I went from being a fairly trusting person a few years back with most of my friends to someone who does not trust anyone anymore unless I have known them for a really long time. My kids are never out of my sight anymore and it's too bad that this is what it takes, but this is the way it is.
    I pity the poor person who would ever try to ever snatch one of my kids, they would not know what hit them, and they would be dead.
    I am here to raise my kids not feed your sick obsession.

  20. #20
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    The chip that is inserted under the skin for kids is in development. I saw the company on some TV show like The View or something a few months back. Right now it's going through testing for FDA approval since it is an invasive procedure. They are doing human testing. What the company is wanting to do is get the chip size down. Right now it's somewhat large, although not really big. Seems they wanted it to be down to a size that could be inserted with a syringe. If I remember correctly, it's a GPS device. This would seem to be the best bet as far as effectiveness as long as there are no health risks. Like the chip moving around to places it shouldn't be.

    At the risk of sounding pro big brother, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have this type of device inserted in people who have been convicted of violent crimes and released. Especially if they are repeat offenders.

    Adults go missing too, not just children. We have a serial killer loose in my area right now who is brutally raping and murdering women. They have made a definite connection to 3 cases with DNA but really suspect that the same person may be responsible for some of the more than 30+ unsolved murder cases in the area. The last woman who was killed was brutally raped, tortured and mutilated. There has to be a better way to catch these people.

  21. #21
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nebufil:
    Once coverage is 80%... what kidnapper won't know to remove any watches/jewelry/etc from his victim?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Even worse, I keep wondering whether these sickos would get the idea to try to hack the embedded chip out of a kid's body when those are finally developed and released.

    {

  22. #22
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Even worse, I keep wondering whether these sickos would get the idea to try to hack the embedded chip out of a kid's body when those are finally developed and released.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ecch! But on the bright side--if they actually get them down to syringe-insertable size, the chips could be injected into secret locations and wouldn't have any telltale lumps to let a perv know where to begin.

    And with no obvious clue, the kids could just say they weren't chipped...if they were convincing, the perv wouldn't know they really were until the cops showed up!

    And if the kid's a bad fibber, he could always be chipped along with a round of vaccines so s/he just thought it was another vaccine...then at 18 the location of the chip would then be given to the kid [since at adulthood, it would be up to the individual whether to keep the chip or not].

    As for chipping convicted criminals, I think there are times it would be justified--but only for certain offenses. I myself don't consider that too big-brother. But if they start trying to stick law-abiding adults with them, (or get the grown-up "chipped kids" to keep theirs) that's another story! I could see all these chipped kids growing up to be tracked Subjects of the Government...no Gestapo needed!

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>or if some way to remove it is found ( I would say what they said but its too morbid ) then the signal would immeadiatly be sent, with the last recorded position tracked.~Popdawg<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well, I can think of some un-morbid ways to remove it...basically the same way that jewelry that gets stuck on by accident is removed! It's generally cut off by some kind of wirecutter-type tool... (Rings and bracelets especially can have this happen. Teens leave 'em on for months at a time and then their bones grow enough that there isn't enough clearance to get 'em off again...jewelers have tools which can get rid of these stuck items without much difficulty.)

    Which brings this to mind--if the parents can't adjust it, it'd take a special refitting session every few months so it doesn't get too tight on the kids as they grow...

    BTW, WalMart's system is called CodeAdam (it's posted on the windows on blue signs, though). I always wondered how that would really work...

    Lisa, I checked out that site and it looks pretty good--although the "fall alert" would be driving you nuts in no time with an active child! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

  23. #23
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Icicle:

    Is there a problem in the US with mobile phone coverage in general?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Coverage in my part of southern California is spotty. At my house it works, but when I leave I go through a dead spot, then about 1 mile of questionable area. There are hills here, but I think the real reason is that the cell antennas are ugly and nobody wants them in their backyard.

    But most of the country is fairly well served, I think. There are certainly some dead spots, though.

    Donna

  24. #24
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    I'm sure you all have heard about it, but we've had one here in Virginia (So Virginia). The girls parents were murdered and she is nowhere to be found. I'm all for the chip as long as it can easily be removed at 18...many people would say its another way for the government to follow us around....If you would put a $400 Lojack system in your Acura, why wouldn't you put one on your kid? This by no means guarantees that a child will be found, but it would certainly increase the chance of survival since police would be able to track that child within those first critical minutes.

  25. #25
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    The only way I could accept this implanted chip stuff is if the proper laws are passed *before* these things start getting used.

    The government tends to take advantage of laws (and lack of them) in ways nobody planned on. The income tax was originally passed as a temporary law - the govt's idea of temporary is obviously a lot longer than ours is.

    For example, put them in kids under 18 - but make a law that *requires* that it be removed say within 6 months of reaching age 18. Otherwise, we eventually end up with a population that's 90% plus trackable. I have no problem with the government paying for it, since they're the potential threat anyway.

    If people over 18 want them (maybe billionaires, celebrities, politicians) who are subject to kidnapping want them, fine - they pay for it. It *definitely* does not get paid for by the government for anybody over 18.

    The organization that does all the monitoring needs to be seperate from the govt - whether like the post office, or a private company contracted to do it, the government has no authority over them.

    They don't release any location information without law enforcement needing it, like getting a warrant. Kidnapping (of whatever sort), kids lost in the woods and nothing else (I dunno, but the specifics have to be put in place ahead of time) - otherwise NSA and who knows who else will end up tracking adults via their kids.

    Keep the chips out of the military - I can see how they might be handy sometimes, but it's a bad idea . At very minimum, time for another law - it has to be removed before discharge (if you've ever been in the military, you know making it on a voluntary basis would be a complete joke).

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