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  1. #1
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Well not even the democrate politicians want to be seen with Al Gore these days. Meanwhile GWB seems to be making history with some very long lasting statements from his heart.

    NATO summit:
    "The world leaders will endorse the creating of a 21,000-strong rapid response force to help NATO remold itself to cope with new security dangers outside Europe after the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

    Bush called the changes the most significant reforms since NATO was founded in 1949. He said he looked to new members, with memories of Cold War Soviet dominance, to invigorate NATO.

    Ex-Soviet states Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia, plus Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Slovenia are to be offered membership in the U.S.-led alliance's biggest expansion beyond the old Iron Curtain, despite earlier Russian concerns.

    "Those with fresh memories of tyranny know the value of freedom. Those who have lived through a struggle of good against evil are never neutral between them," Bush added."

    http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/World...21120_331.html
    ____________________________________________

    Some of his statements immediately after 9/11 will be in your great grandkid's history books along side Abe Lincoln, Rosevelt, JFK and Winston Churchill's key phrases. The guy is on a roll...

    WebMaster Mike

    [This message was edited by EcomCity.com on November 20, 2002 at 02:09 PM.]

  2. #2
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    I'm moderately pro-Bush (easy after Clinton) but you can forget any kind of Nato rapid response force. Rapid? Any action taken would have to be approved by 150 people from 20 countries in 8 committees.

    Realistically, the only reason Nato was formed was as a framework for a Pax America - ensuring Europe didn't drag us into any more wars they'd started with each other.

    In the event the commies had crossed the line we could have counted on Britain, Norway, and (surprisingly) the Swiss as totally with us (I may be missing somebody there). But for most of Nato, any help we got would have paled in comparison to the millions of uniformed, trained, armed and highly pissed off men we already had behind enemy lines (which direction do you think the Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, etc would have been firing in?).

    Heck, all it took was a KGB rumor of American airborne to get the Czechs to decide to take on the Russians.

  3. #3
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> GWB has a way of growing on you.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yeah, sort of like a cancer.

    Don't worry. Your grandchildren won't miss freedom, democracy, personal privacy or civil liberties. They will have never experienced them in the first place.

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

    [This message was edited by SSanf on November 20, 2002 at 04:26 PM.]

  4. #4
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    Your grandchildren won't miss freedom, democracy, person privacy or civil liberties...
    - - - - - - - -


    Not to get pulled into a potentially harsh conversation, but that's a bit of a reach, there, ssanf.....


    There are *way* to many watch groups and rights advocates for this country to follow that path, and certainly we could not get there without both parties and independants ( along with a couple hundred million potential voters )agreeing to it, which would never happen....

    I Will FOCUS On My Goal

  5. #5
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Wishful thinking. He is destroying this country.

    Don't take anything for granted. Don't assume the votes are counted correctly. Don't assume lawyer client privilege. (ditto: doctor, patient; and minister, communicant) Don't assume your telephone conversations and mail are private, particularly electronic mail. Do assume your travels are documented. Don't assume an open trial if you are accused. Do assume all non-cash transactions are open to government scrutiny.

    Don't assume this only applies to what we think of as "terrorists", either. They only need to redefine what is terroristic activity for it to apply to you!

    And, do assume that everyone will just accept this and think it is normal in a few years. In fact, I bet there are people on this board right now who are OK with this and who don't understand what the objection could possibly be.


    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

    [This message was edited by SSanf on November 20, 2002 at 04:55 PM.]

  6. #6
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    Funny, I used to think like that a bit (a **bit**) during the Clinton years.

  7. #7
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ex-Soviet states Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia, plus Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and Slovenia are to be offered membership in the U.S.-led alliance's biggest expansion beyond the old Iron Curtain, despite earlier Russian concerns.

    "Those with fresh memories of tyranny know the value of freedom. Those who have lived through a struggle of good against evil are never neutral between them," Bush added."
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Yes how many have forgotten the cold war? Thousands of nuclear warheads ready to kill us all within 30 minutes of launch. I grew up in that era . I can still remember the air raid drills in Grade 1 and 2. Under the desk with hands over head curled up in the "safe" position.
    Thanks to Ronald Reagan that threat to us is now history. We now face new threats from the radical animals of islam and a growing menace from Red China ( which happened to aquire much of it's current technology from us during the last pathetic administration) GWB is on the right path. We are the last superpower and should act as such. Screw the worthless bastards at the UN and anyone else that objects to our protection of our freedoms and the freedoms of other nations that persue that course.

  8. #8
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    T-Bone does get the relevance of his words as he drew the line in the sand shortly after 9/11. Your either with us or against us in stamping out terrorism as a means to any justifiable end.

    "Those with fresh memories of tyranny know the value of freedom. Those who have lived through a struggle of good against evil are never neutral between them," Bush added."

    My Dad used to say the word "liberal" during WW II was only used to describe the amount of salt one put on their meat.

    WebMaster Mike

  9. #9
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Are you saying that the ends justifies the means?

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  10. #10
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    The terrorists are saying that the end justifies the means. GWB is saying, simply, you are with us or you are against us.

    You either agree with the terrorists that the end justifies the means, or you don't.

    I Will FOCUS On My Goal

  11. #11
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Are you saying that the ends justifies the means?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Yes. I will give Karl Marx his due for the origonation of that term. Now , in this present history, to preserve our way of life and those that wish to enjoy the freedoms that we now have: the means will justify the end if the end is freedom and opportunity for all the people of the world. However until we eliminate, destroy, kill those which have their own hidious adgendas the majority of the the worlds people will never be able to prosper and grow.

  12. #12
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    WASHINGTON — A massive database that the government will use to monitor every purchase made by every American citizen is a necessary tool in the war on terror, the Pentagon said Wednesday.

    Pentagon to Track American Consumer Purchases

    And, I am sure you are OK with this, too, right?
    Don't worry, your grandchildren will never miss personal privacy. They will have never experienced it.

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  13. #13
    ABW Veteran Student Heyder's Avatar
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    Privacy is relevant to the situation.

    If you think about it most of us have never known true privacy.

    I received my anti-privacy number the day I was born 395-**-****.

    Decades ago you could be imprisioned for being a commie. Today you are free to practice what you like.

  14. #14
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    SSanf,
    And just how will the Blue Meanies accomplish this. Our family makes about 10 financial transactions a day. One family. Conservativly there are about 100 million familys that do the same. How in the hell can anyone or supercomputer do anything with this information. Man I grow weary of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  15. #15
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Harvard Mulls Offensive Speech Ban

    Of course, you would have no objections to banning offensive speech at our bastions of intellectual freedom, either, I suppose.

    After all free speech isn't always all that good an idea, is it?

    This is just from today's news.

    Well, your grandchildren won't mind if there are limits to free speech on college campuses, will they. They will never have experienced free speech.

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  16. #16
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Pentagon confirms 'snooping' system

    OK by you, right?

    Now, who is it that we are supposed to be protecting our way of life from?

    Yeah, really grows on you.

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  17. #17
    ABW Veteran Student Heyder's Avatar
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    Free speach is dead and it has nothing to do with government.

  18. #18
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    I think that one of the primary reasons the Democrats got their behinds whupped this last election is because people saw how serious Bush took his job, how responsible he has been, and they compared that to Clinton and found that, you know what, George ain't so bad.

    If the Democrats hope to make a comeback next election, they need to latch onto someone the country can respect.

    If the government has to gather intelligence on foreign individuals moving about the U.S. in order to prevent a nuclear or chemical assault from occurring, I'm all for it.

    Ssanf, I can't help but think you are blaming the wrong individuals: the terrorists are the ones forcing our government to react, to try to prevent their agression, so blame them on any perceived loss of your freedoms.

    If our government did nothing to prevent a nuclear assault, there's no doubt in my mind that many of the ones griping about rights would be the same ones complaining that the government didn't react to forestall an attack when they could have.

    I Will FOCUS On My Goal

  19. #19
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Well, I've been silent, but just can't resist any longer. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    First, no one has ever claimed that the price for freedom and liberty is free. Indeed, the cost can be quite high.

    Secondly, our nation remains intact. More importantly, the cornerstones of functioning government remains intact, that is, the checks and balances of the branches of our government. Last time I checked, we still had 3 branches of government and the checks and balances were in place. And free elections were still happening, which allow us to change our government officials if we don't approve. Granted, not a perfect system at times, but still the best system going.

    Our nation was founded from the Declaration of Independence which states:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The basic rights bestowed to us by virtue of the fact that we are human beings is Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. I don't believe I see Privacy here anywhere. However, terriorist acts do pose a very real threat to our 3 basic Rights which this country is founded on.

    From the Preamble of the Constitution:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The Constitution dictates the manner in which our government is to operate and function for the reasons listed above.

    For those who haven't looked at the Constitution since Civics class, it's here.

    The Constitution was signed in 1787 with four Articles addressing: The Legislative Branch, The Presidency, the Judiciary, and the States.

    The Constitutional Rights that we hold so dear now, are all Admendments to the Constitution. We all know that Freedom of Speech in protected under the First Admendment. The point being, that all "freedoms" that we connect emotionally to our basic rights as Americans have been in fact added on after the fact so to speak. Not to say that they are not very important, but only that came as a progression to the foundation (relatively speaking) of the birth of our country. The first Admendments to the Constitution didn't occur until 1791. The last Admendment was 1992.

    Check the list of Admendments from the link above. Again, where is freedom of privacy a Constitutional right. What the Constitution is supposed to provide for: "insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare". Again all things threatened by terriorist acts.

    I don't see the threats to our nation being from our own government. I see them very realistically being from those who wish to see the United States no more.

    What would any of us think if we woke up tomorrow morning and heard that the President had suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus? I would hate to imagine. But an action so drastic did happen. Ordered by a President who many claim to be one of our greatest Presidents in our history. Lincoln. Why did he do it? To be able to jail those people who he felt where determintal to his task of keeping our country together as a whole for as long as necessary without having to bring formal charges. Now I'm not recommending this. My point is, that suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus is a drastic measure. But guess what? It didn't stay suspended, our country remained whole, and country continued to grow and prosper.

    I have faith in my country and its citizens in the long run. We have made our share of mistakes as a nation, but overall we have grown, learned, become better, and prospered. We have faced threats in the past and have risen to the challenges. Liberty is not free and many throughout our history have paid huge scarifices for what we enjoy today and feel we are entitled to. And drastic times sometimes do call for drastic measures which may not always be pretty or pleasant. But I, personally, am willing to sacrifice some of those "freedoms" to preserve the fundamental intergrity of what our nation represents. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I also have faith that the drastics measures that may be needed today, will fade into the history pages for future generations once the threats we face today are no longer present.

    Just my
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  20. #20
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    Great post BLFH. You would love one of the programs I produce.


    Ssanf, you would be the last person I would think would be upset...just caught me by surprise. We can not worry about the terrorists...what was that quote the other day 'We won't stop attacking the West until America converts to all Muslim'.

    Just the fact that you can come on this board and post your political views says a lot...any other place, many of us would be in jail already.

    I too am confident that our checks and balances are in place for a reason, and that it is a stable system that works.

    After all, I recall a recent election....100% turnout, 100% in favor of the current leader...all in the course of about 8 hours.

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  21. #21
    ABW Adviser Panel Dynamoo's Avatar
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    I have to say I'm with Ssanf.. the terrorist attacks have been used as an excuse by a number of western leaders/politicians/whatever to implement restrictions and snooping legislation that they have wanted for years.

    On 12th September 2001 the British government floated the idea of identity cards being compulsory in the UK with a fully-worked-out proposal. Don't tell me they were up all night doing that. And that's just an example of this.. long-rejected policies being dusted off and repackaged.

    Don't forget, 9/11 was just a bunch of guys with some boxcutters, that's all. Really pretty low-tech, low-key stuff. The real failure in intelligence was to let these known Al-Qaeda into the US in the first place. Having the laxest airport security in the western world wasn't helpful either.

    I think the European perspective of GWB is pretty unflattering - I guess most people see him as a warmongering, clinically stupid person who got into power through a deeply flawed election process, who is in hock to the oil barons and zero grasp of foreign policy. Everyone apart from Tony bloody Blair that is.

    You know, after 9/11 the British stood side-by-side with the US and were prepared to offer whatever we could. This is because the US is our ally and we regard the American people as our friends. And what did we get in return for this? Trade sanctions. And then he wants to involve the British in a badly conceived war in Iraq.

    I'm just hoping someone gives him a bumper bag of pretzels for Christmas.

    [Pinko bleeding heart liberal and proud of it]

    Меня зовут Динаму

    [This message was edited by Dynamoo on November 22, 2002 at 09:00 AM.]

  22. #22
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Nice post BLFH on what makes us American's cherish democracy and freedom. Nice to see someone quote the key points of the constitution rather than what they read in the Grocery Store rags. All people have an adjenda including GWB. His just happens to have an impact on history with the guiding light being protecting every single American from foreign terrorists.

    He ignors the bad press and takes on the hard task of making sure 9/11 will not occur again during his lifetime. No longer can we ignor those who use murder as a daily weapon to further their adjenda just because they are murdering innocents in far off places. They all rather be murdering those posting here and the shoppers in our shopping centers if allowed to hatch their plans. We all invade our own privacy the moment we speakout and yell through a bull horn at some liberal demonstration.

    GWB is protecting our privacy by making sure our privates are displayed in some bloody heep of a blown up bus on NBC news. Thank God the privacy of those 2 Beltway snipers was violated or the death toll would be 100 by now.

    WebMaster Mike

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    &gt;'won't stop attacking the West until America converts to all Muslim'

    I saw that recently. Shows what how completely removed from reality those people are. I mean, they might have a hope with some countries with their first demand, 'stop supporting Israel' (I don't know if they support Israel or not, but attack the French and they'd stop any support in a heartbeat). But they wouldn't get anywhere with the convert idea with us unless it was their old fashioned "convert or off with your head" routine (yeah, in that case they'd get some anyway).

    &gt;After all, I recall a recent election....100% turnout, 100% in favor of the current leader...all in the course of about 8 hours.

    Did anybody run against him?

  24. #24
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> the terrorist attacks have been used as an excuse by a number of western leaders/politicians/whatever to implement restrictions and snooping legislation that they have wanted for years....... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That's my take on it.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think the European perspective of GWB is pretty unflattering - I guess most people see him as a warmongering, clinically stupid person who got into power through a deeply flawed election process, who is in hock to the oil barons and zero grasp of foreign policy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Unflattering yes....On the mark, yes.
    Being removed from the situation, they see us better than we see ourselves.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> the terrorists are the ones forcing our government to react, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well from the way GWB is reacting, I sure guess they won this round and the American people sure lost.

    But, that's OK with you, right? What the heck, who needs the Bill of Rights, anyway.

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  25. #25
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    Ummm..... actually, without defending ourselves against the terrorists, there would be no Bill of Rights. You seem to be the one that doesn't value it, by suggesting our government allow potential terrorists to move freely about the country unchecked.

    I Will FOCUS On My Goal

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