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  1. #1
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Linkshare - One Year later.
    About a year ago, when I was still a Newbie here on ABW, I thought about joining LS. but, after I read a lot of bad comments on this forum about Linkshare, I decided to wait and see.

    In the mean time I was reading all the old posts that I could find about Linkshare and waiting to read some good positive new threads about them in here before I joined the network. Then on February 3rd, 2004 at this thread: http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=23349

    While I am still wondering about the events of that date, I could care less about what Linkshare did or didn't do about that issue, that's not my problem, yet.

    What really get me piss-off and get me sick, it's not Linkshare. Linkshare to me is just another Network and they have to look up for their best financial interests, whether it's on an ethical or unethical way of doing business, as long as it's not illegal by the law of the man of the land, they and anyone else, have the right to run their business, any way they see it fit, as least that's the way I see it and interpret both laws, (legal law - ethical law.)

    (To me the legal law means: Break the law and pay a fine, go to jail or get a dead sentence and to me the ethical law means: Break the law and go to hell when you die. (I'm having a problem with the hell part because, I quit the religious belief long time ago, but I still believe in a ethical way to live by, like the: don't do to others what you don't want others do to you.)

    Now, the main reason I decided to open this thread today in here is because of what I still see going on this forum a year later.

    Today, after I have browse through 30 pages of 25 threads each, about 750 different threads on the Linkshare Forum, I have come to a conclusion: MONEY TALKS - BS - POST.

    With out going more than a year back, I can't understand the how or the why the same people that where here bashing Linkshare a year ago, are still here bashing Linkshare here today, while they're still a member of the Linkshare Network.

    While my English language writing skills might be not grammatically perfect, I know about the exact meaning of these words: Masochist, Hypocrite, Double Standard and total BS.

    So, today I ask myself, how can I hate Linkshare if I have never been a member of Linkshare?

    Why? Maybe just because I have read a 95% bashing of Linkshare from the same people here, that from over a year ago are still here bashing Linkshare today, but don't drop out of Linkshare.

    Why? Maybe just because they're making a lot of money on Linkshare so they will bash Linkshare but, won't get out because the money it's still good, besides the fact.

    Bull Shit.

    I just hope that any Newbie that land on this Linkshare forum, do their own search and research and decide for themselves whether to join Linkshare or not and not get influenced by all the negatives threads they read by the same people here that no mater what they say or how or why they don't like Linkshare and decide to bash Linkshare on this forum, they're now and they're going to still stay with Linkshare no mater what, because the money they make must be good at Linkshare.

    In conclusion, I spent almost all day today thinking about this post and the consequences that I might encounter by making this new thread, but I don't care, I don't have nothing to hide.

    I don't know if this thread will stay open, I don't know if this thread will be deleted and I don't know if this thread will get me out, but I don't care because I am not lying, I am only tired of the same BS I read on this particular forum about how bad Linkshare is, but the same people that say that today, are saying the same crap for over a year while they're still there making money and just scaring the Newbies away, like in DON'T JOIN HERE SO I CAN HAVE LESS COMPETITION kind of like some Hypocrite or Double Standard and total BS crap.

    Sal.

  2. #2
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    The reason they keep the pressure on LS is so that it will stop bad practices and improve. They want it to be a BETTER network. And, to a certain extent, it works. For instance, it looks like LS is going forward with consolidated payments. Do you think they would do that if it hadn't been for all the *****ing? That is the main reason that I for one don't use LS much. I want to get paid for every sale in a timely way. Now, LS makes no such guarantee. If they do ever make all the merchants use consolidated payments and have an escrow, I for one will take another look at them.

    Secondly, what ever gave you the idea that if you make an unpopular post that it will be deleted or that there will be any repercussions other than you may be scoffed at or ridiculed?

    You have to say something that is illegal, untrue and libelous, threaten legal action, degrade a class of people or unjustly call into question the integrity of the administration or the board members for that to happen. Don't do those and you will be OK. You can also get kicked out because of things that are going on between you and Haiko behind the sceens and/or if he finds out something about you and/or your way of doing business that he feels makes you an inappropriate member. When that happens, we don't necessarily understand it but have to remember it is his board and that he knows things we don't. Rank has its privilage. Controversy in posting is simply not a problem.

    And, frankly, you have been around long enough to KNOW that!
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  3. #3
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    The reason they keep the pressure on LS is so that it will stop bad practices and improve.
    I can relate to that, but as someone that have plenty of experience for a few decades waiting for a change on an another matter, I can assure you that, that kind of pressure along, won't work.

    For instance, it looks like LS is going forward with consolidated payments. Do you think they would do that if it hadn't been for all the *****ing?
    Get real, they might do that because it's the way to go and it's on their best of interest, but if I am wrong on that and they're doing it because all the *****ing that is going here on for over a year, well......, then I guess I am not wrong about the time machine.

    Secondly, what ever gave you the idea that if you make an unpopular post that it will be deleted or that there will be any repercussions other than you may be scoffed at or ridiculed?
    That's a very good question but, I think you know the answer.

    You can also get kicked out because of things that are going on between you and Haiko behind the sceens and/or if he finds out something about you and/or your way of doing business that he feels makes you an inappropriate member.
    There is nothing going on between Haiko and me anywhere and besides I believe that Haiko already know about me and the way I do business, so that is not a problem.

    Controversy in posting is simply not a problem.
    I think you would not say that if you read more than 750 different threads on a particular forum, any forum.

    And, frankly, you have been around long enough to KNOW that!
    Exactly, I have been around long enough to know that other people might find a problem with this post and just delete it. (and by the way, I don't mean Haiko.)

    Sal.

  4. #4
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sal
    Maybe just because they're making a lot of money on Linkshare so they will bash Linkshare but, won't get out because the money it's still good, besides the fact.
    That's exactly the case with me. I have several good merchants that use Linkshare. Those merchants account for about a third of my income. I've approached some of them about doing an affiliate relationship outside of Linkshare, but their contracts don't allow it.

    If you read my earlier posts, I was very pro-Linkshare. They were (at one time) the best network, in my opinion. They're now dead last out of the major networks.

    I think this year could be a turning point for Linkshare. I see many indications that things may be improving. Whether or not those improvements materialize is anyone's guess. I honestly hope they do. Linkshare certainly has the potential to be great again. They have a long way to go, and an uphill battle to win back the hearts of the affiliates.
    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com
     Affiliate Tips | Merchant Best Practices | Affiliate Friendly? | Couponing | CPA Networks? | ABW Tips | Activating Affiliates
    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  5. #5
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Huh.....I wonder who he thinks would be motivated to delete a post just because he said he doesn't like people *****ing about LS and implies that somehow, they profit from such complaining or something.

    Very strange to me.

    By that line of reasoning, I complain about CJ because I really and truely have all these secret sites chock full of CJ merchants and I want to keep you all from using CJ so I can have that yummy gravey train all to myself! Am I wicked or what!
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  6. #6
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Talking
    Believe me to get a meaningful pro-affiliate change from any network takes zapping the management into unconsciousness with multiple phazer guns. I'd like to thank my advocates for providing me with fresh batteries since 1998 when I first mouthed off in public about some obvious network abuses. I never have to review a single word I've posted since 1998 because none of it was BS to me. All of it demanded some type of action from either networks -affiliates or merchants. Most of it was ignored till the root cause bit everyone in the pocketbook.

    There isn't a network out there that can't get it done right, if they'd lose the mass advertising mindset, and demand equal value-add from their entire affiliate base for every dollar earned. They just are mentally fixated on those who bend the rules and show they excell in e-mail -SERP & browser spamming. Hopefully LS will make some changes to make the domainless tricksters completely identify themselves when the duped consumers and real merchant management demand some legal accountablility. That WILL happen this year or the noise levels in the media wouldn't be so loud.

    You think I can rant. Wait till they hand the bullhorn to Charlie.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador
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    We ***** a lot here about the networks to pressure them to improve. I ***** a whole lot more at the cj forum because most of my merchants are there and if they can fix the problems we ***** about, they would have a wonderful network.

    Likewise here. We bother to bring up the problems we face with Linkshare so that they know about it, they know how much it bothers us, and hopefully, they would make an effort to fix the problems.

    Every moment spent *****ing here could be spent working on our sites to make more money. Would we bother to complain here if we thought that they would just ignore the problems we bring up in this forum?

  8. #8
    Chick with Brains Tracy's Avatar
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    Also, sometimes you just plain need to vent. I don't know about everybody else, but for me this is a very solitary business. None of my friends or family members are in affiliate marketing. If I start ranting to my husband about something that bothers me, he has no idea what I'm talking about. At least here, when I bring up something, I get feedback from others who know exactly what I'm going through ... people going through the same thing.

    Yes, there is a lot of ranting and raving here. But there are also a lot of positives to be found here too. If we all just spoke in positives, then none of the problems would ever get fixed.

  9. #9
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Also, it isn't just *****ing here that sometimes gets results. A few of us discovered SAS and shouted to the hills time after time how good they are.

    We brought them out of relative obscurity to a pretty viable network my repeated praising which they absolutely deserve. By saying over and over again what SAS does RIGHT, we also got the ear of LS and CJ. If you think they haven't watched how SAS has been and is growing and haven't seen how many sites have SAS links and don't have LS or CJ links, you just haven't been paying attention.

    Not to take away any credit from Brian and all his hard work but I think ABW members sure had a whole lot to do with SAS taking off like it has.

    SAS has over 1000 squeaky clean merchants LS and CJ DIDN'T get. Next year, I think it will be 2000.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  10. #10
    Full Member AAnnAArchy's Avatar
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    I don't know why someone who doesn't use LinkShare or plan on using LinkShare, wastes their time reading lots of threads by people who *do* use LinkShare. We complain because, well, we have complaints. It doesn't mean the bad outweighs the good for some of us. Some merchants can't leave LS, but that doesn't mean they're bad merchants.

    So, yeah, I keep the few LS merchants I like because they make money for me. I also have Performics and CJ merchants, plus independent ones. I make more money at LS, so therefore my complaints about being paid late will naturally be made here. It's hardly worth it to whine about my missing $35 from Performics when I'm missing $2000 from LS.

  11. #11
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Yes, Affiliates do need to vent ... it is a solitary business.

    I sometimes wonder if that is part of the model with all the fraud I see.

    As for the LS merchants, they are name brand merchants and would convert for ya, maybe not at the rate you'd expect or should enjoy because of parasites, but you'll still make money off them, they are like "slam dunks" as I call them.

    I wish there was the fortune 100 or 1000 support offered to the sales partners of these cos.

    BTW ... I have a 20%+ click thru rate since Jan on a highly specialized niche .... where everyone who clicks should buy ... know what I made? Nothing.

    I, for once don't questions LS tracking on this one ... but the merchant's so it's cost them over $40,000,000 in lost sales ... that was another slam dunk! Dumb asses!
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  12. #12
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    You can also get kicked out because of things that are going on between you and Haiko behind the sceens and/or if he finds out something about you and/or your way of doing business that he feels makes you an inappropriate member.
    I just wanted to clarify this ... AMs who F us are shit and yes they get booted, I will not allow them to advertise in iny manner, other members who've pissed where they eat ... well they deserve to eat piss ladden fodder.

    I've never strayed from my impetus, yet others have newly found rason d'etre's ... fudge ... if your an affiliate ... make money, that's your reason ... if you want to fight ... ring my bell.

    Other than that ... cut the shoot and make money, help others to and be a good person. What's wrong with that?
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  13. #13
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Smile
    Haiko points out that the networks #1 job to justify costs is RECRUITMENT of active affiliates. The recruitment offered by positive exposure on ABW dwarfs the network attempts for domain affiliates. Recruitment also is the networks Achilies heel as they alienate and starve the value-add domain bound affiliates (networked mailed spam recepricants only) while shoving the cookie stuffers, BHO, e-mail spammers, Dupers and incenters on any and all merchants on a daily basis.

    Haiko knows if the ethical forces, hearing the screaming shopper/voters/customers, can pull the rug out from under spam and Telemarketing industry, they will do likewise to the uninvited BHO's, click traffic tricksters and gorrilla marketing privacy info peddlers.

    You earn respect and status at ABW by what you truthfully produce ...not smoke & mirror and BS attempts at duping affiliates here back into the 1990's. Mess with someones legit cookies and shopper value-add pages and your going to pay the piper sooner or later. If this industry is going to adopt meaningful changes, it will only be through the voices and pressures of ABW. The other places just jerk each other off by patting each others backs on their tricks for clicks skills and traffic hijacking ploys. How many here just ignor new merchant announcements at BF -CJ and LS??? How many ignor new merchant forum announcements at ABW? Do we need a vote to determine that piece of bait????
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  14. #14
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    How many here just ignor new merchant announcements at BF -CJ and LS??? How many ignor new merchant forum announcements at ABW?
    Boy, you got that right!

    I used to always put up any ABW new merchant on principle. I can't keep up, now, but I alwys look at them.

    I almost NEVER look at the networks new merchant announcements. But, I still look at and consider every ABW new merchant to see if I could be interested in their products.
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  15. #15
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    That's exactly the case with me. I have several good merchants that use Linkshare. Those merchants account for about a third of my income. I've approached some of them about doing an affiliate relationship outside of Linkshare, but their contracts don't allow it.
    Michael Coley, thanks for your honest reply.

    Sal.

    ------------------------------

    And, frankly, you have been around long enough to KNOW that!

    Huh.....I wonder who he thinks would be motivated to delete a post just because he said he doesn't like people *****ing about LS and implies that somehow, they profit from such complaining or something.
    Show me where I have said that I don't like people *****ing about LS.

    You're right Sandra, I have been around here long enough to have read your sig again (Comments are to be interpreted as opinion unless otherwise noted.) before I made the second post on this thread.
    I misread your reply and almost myself.

    ------------------------------

    I don't know why someone who doesn't use LinkShare or plan on using LinkShare, wastes their time reading lots of threads by people who *do* use LinkShare. We complain because, well, we have complaints. It doesn't mean the bad outweighs the good for some of us. Some merchants can't leave LS, but that doesn't mean they're bad merchants.

    So, yeah, I keep the few LS merchants I like because they make money for me. I also have Performics and CJ merchants, plus independent ones. I make more money at LS, so therefore my complaints about being paid late will naturally be made here. It's hardly worth it to whine about my missing $35 from Performics when I'm missing $2000 from LS.
    AAnnAArchy, to me reading is not a waste of time, I like to read a lot and the more I read, the more I will learn.Thanks for your reply.

    Sal.

    ------------------------------

    Yes, Affiliates do need to vent ... it is a solitary business.
    I agree Haiko, that's why I made this thread, I was only venting to see if I can read some positive posts about LS.


    I just wanted to clarify this ... AMs who F us are shit and yes they get booted, I will not allow them to advertise in iny manner, other members who've pissed where they eat ... well they deserve to eat piss ladden fodder.

    I've never strayed from my impetus, yet others have newly found rason d'etre's ... fudge ... if your an affiliate ... make money, that's your reason ... if you want to fight ... ring my bell.

    Other than that ... cut the shoot and make money, help others to and be a good person. What's wrong with that?
    Haiko, that's why I trust you 100% and the reason I stay here on ABW. You put your principles before money and I am the same way.

    Keep up the good work and out anyone and everyone that you find is up to no good for ABW.

    Sal.

  16. #16
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Understand the "piss where they eat". Now, you are talking language that makes sense to me!

    BTW, you were absolutely right about someone I defended for quite a while (La....). But, it took me a bit of time to see that. Sometimes people are too smart for their own darned good!
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  17. #17
    ABW Ambassador
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    Linkshare and other networks are just middle men. The real relation is between the affiliate and merchant. Many of the biggest problems in affiliate marketing occurred because middle men have been less than trustworthy, which is in part why affiliate board seeth in anger aimed at the networks.

    The networks are in a better position to do something about parasites than either the merchant or affiliate. Instead of protecting merchants and affiliates against parasites, the big three networks actively worked to promote and develop the programs. Each incremental step in the battle against parasites takes sustained yelling and online posts.

    Staying in a market despite the bad things in that market is not hypocrisy.

    Few people up and drop Linkshare because most affiliates just see LS as a middle man.

  18. #18
    ABW Ambassador
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    Some of the best AMs I know run programs with linkshare. I don't bother with linkshare or cj new merchant announcements but I do bug those anti-parasite AMs now and then to find out if they just signed up new merchants I may have missed out.

    Once I find an genuinely anti-parasite AM, I definitely want to promote the rest of their programs if I can figure out how to promote the stuff they are selling anyway.

  19. #19
    Outsourced Program Manager Chris -  AMWSO's Avatar
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    Sal

    I've seen very few people who post they don't like working with LinkShare go as far as dropping the network, the same can be said for those who don't like CJ , Performics or most other networks, because there are always one or two gems (or rough cut diamonds) on each network that they want to work on, or an AM that they wish to support.

    A lot of good changes are being made on LinkShare, often we all get impatient to see changes happen at the click of button, reality is, that it takes more than a few lines of code and an email saying "done" to make many things happen. The new reporting has 3 generations planned and we're looking at version 1 right now. New affiliate sign system will make an AMs job far easier and allow us to spend more time working and less time checking, and the consolidated payment is certainly the biggest change/boost for affiliates. And there's plenty more being planned and tested.

    Change takes time, and needs constructive input and support. I strongly believe that change is supported better through internal support and co-operation, than external abuse.

    Cheers

    Chris
    Affiliate Marketing by AMWSO. Skype - chrissanderson ::: TEL 1-720-336-1784 ::: www.amwso.net
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  20. #20
    ABW Ambassador Ron Bechdolt's Avatar
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    Looking back at looking forward
    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelColey
    ...If you read my earlier posts, I was very pro-Linkshare. They were (at one time) the best network, in my opinion. They're now dead last out of the major networks.

    I think this year could be a turning point for Linkshare. I see many indications that things may be improving. Whether or not those improvements materialize is anyone's guess. I honestly hope they do. Linkshare certainly has the potential to be great again. They have a long way to go, and an uphill battle to win back the hearts of the affiliates.
    At the bottom of every page of post there is a list of what the forum software thinks is related links. I found this one most fasinating as it deβates the current friction present today and as Michael states above, gives reasons why many of us are still here with LS, hoping that they one day see the light and improve.

    If you get a chance, go back to the top of this post and read the comments. It's really a good thread supporting the possibility of a better LS, but I found it interesting reading as it was all pre-Athena, pre-verifcation, pre-SynergyAnalytics and pre-direct deposit. It makes me wonder if someone, even Mr. Sal, would write the same post today. We've been through an awful lot, but we are still here.
    Ron Bechdolt | Affiliate Program Management Consultant
    7 Days A Week Marketing

  21. #21
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Excellent "resurrection" of a thread, Ron. A lot has happened in the past five months. Things got considerably worse before they got better. They definitely hit some speed bumps along the way. All in all, I would have to say that LinkShare is better than they were five months ago. They still have a long way to go, but the net result has been an improvement. And looking forward, I think they'll continue to improve.

    Some areas where we're better off today:

    1) Direct Deposit is finally implemented and working properly. We have some preliminary reports that allow us to see information on our payments and have promises that more useful reports are coming.

    2) Despite the initial hassles of Athena, I think some of the problems are now ironed out and merchants should be seeing the benefits of it. We should be seeing the benefits indirectly, as merchants should now have more time to devote to their active and prospective affiliates.

    3) Kelli, Dan, and others from LinkShare are much more active here, and our feedback is being heard. It's not being acted on as quickly as many would like, but it's still an improvement over the void we had before.

    4) Kelli and her team are actively seeking affiliate input on new features. We haven't seen much fruit from that yet, but I'm sure we will.

    Even more importantly than what's been accomplished so far, I'm very optimistic about what will be accomplished in the future. There's still a lot that needs to be improved, and LinkShare seems to be focused on trying to make many of those improvements.
    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com
     Affiliate Tips | Merchant Best Practices | Affiliate Friendly? | Couponing | CPA Networks? | ABW Tips | Activating Affiliates
    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  22. #22
    ABW Ambassador Ron Bechdolt's Avatar
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    The only dark cloud I see after reading your last post, Michael, was the way we were treated during project Athena and verification. Post after post after post here and LS did not seem to care. And that was compounded by support emails by the hundreds going unanswered. I hope that management has finally made the turn to put affiliates higher on their list of priorities, but only time will tell. I still have a bad taste in my mouth after that experience.

    What I have not seen addressed yet, and it means my statement above could still happen, is LS's support system. They still use an email address with a spam filter on it to receive support requests. They have said nothing about implementing a support ticket system. No FAQ. As I see it, they have not prepared for when another fiasco occurs to be able to help us as they should.

    A lot of my complaints of LS is their communication process. Support has not improved much, it's probably not as complained about here right now because of the drop in support emails after things settled down.

    I'm still not happy with the stats software and think we have been in beta long enough.

    I still have concerns about the way management runs things but I'm not going to go into all that again.
    Ron Bechdolt | Affiliate Program Management Consultant
    7 Days A Week Marketing

  23. #23
    Member jrb16915's Avatar
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    Direct Deposit Not available for all.
    Hello,

    I do not believe direct deposit is available to affiliates whose business structure is a partnership. At least it is not for me even though I have cleared several consolidated checks.

    I am part of a partnership that uses firefox. Definitely not at the top of the list of linkshare compatible.

  24. #24
    ABW Ambassador LinkShare Moderator's Avatar
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    jrb16915,
    I'll look into your question regarding partnerships and direct deposit and get back with you. Regarding Firefox, our 3rd party software provider is launching a new version that is compatible with the Firefox browser. It's being tested. I'll update everyone once it's released.
    Kelli

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