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  1. #1
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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  2. #2
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Can't the LS merchants and LS get together and do something legally to make them desist? I think they should be seeking legal remedy!

    Have the merchants and LS been advised of this turn of events?

    Am I the only one that sees the possibilty of CJ's hand in this since the issue of CJ merchants not being on the exclusion list has been recently raised?
    Comments are opinion unless otherwise noted. Remember, pillage first. Then burn. Half of all people in the world have IQs under 100. You best learn to trust ol' SSanf!

  3. #3
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    Last edited by Haiko de Poel, Jr.; April 4th, 2005 at 01:14 AM. Reason: Read my first edit reason.

  4. #4
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    My first message was not keyword stuffing. Then Haiko deleted my second message, where I explained why the first message was entirely legitimate -- and where I further provided some interesting additional facts that would have been of interest to ABW readers.

    Well, it looks like I'll be posting this information elsewhere instead, since apparently the free exchange of information is not possible here. Haiko, will you delete this message too?

    If your concern is keyword stuffing, why not implement the new rel=nofollow spec (see http://www.google.com/googleblog/200...ment-spam.html )? That way links can be helpfully labeled (as in my first post, before Haiko removed the labels) without risk of search engine bonuses. I actually don't care about the search engine bonuses -- I'm already highly ranked for all the keywords I care about, and even if I weren't, I wouldn't use keyword spamming to improve my position. But Haiko's current method (removing link labels) harms users who just want helpful and clear messages. This approach doesn't make sense to me when there's a clear and easy better way, as set out in the Google spec.

  5. #5
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    If Haiko was smart and serious about educating the public he'd post links to your articles himself.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

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  6. #6
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    SSanf, I don't see CJ having anything to do with this at all. Indeed it's not an expected event at all for me. 180 is no longer in LS, therefore the control LS has over which of their Merchant's is on the exclusion list is greatly decreased. Folks wanted LS to drop 180. 180 is no longer partnered with LS. The Networks have always said they would rather work with the parasites than boot them because they have more ability to control their behavior. This is most likely an example of that very argrument. I'm not saying that parasites shouldn't be terminated because of bad behavior, just saying that what we are seeing here can also be a consequence.

    If your concern is keyword stuffing, why not implement the new rel=nofollow spec
    He doesn't have to since he has board policy in place that he has made very clear. Follow the board rules like everyone else and there's no problem. When you have your own forum, then you can pay for a hack to implement the nofollow thing and set whatever rules you want for your forum.

    That way links can be helpfully labeled (as in my first post, before Haiko removed the labels) without risk of search engine bonuses.
    That tells me right there you did indeed kw stuff your links. He did not remove your links. I still count 2 links to your site in your first post. Looks like all he did was remove the keyword anchor text. You think readers of this forum lack the intelligence to be able to grasp what your are linking to on your site without you kw stuffing the link? If that is the case, than I can guarantee you that the information contained on your site would be well over their heads anyway.

    But Haiko's current method (removing link labels) harms users who just want helpful and clear messages.
    BACK THAT STATEMENT UP WITH PROOF!!!! You are going to come on this forum and make a claim that Haiko has harmed users by editing one of your posts?!?! Just who in the heck do you think you are??? Haiko has done more to fight for what is right for the average affiliate that resulted in some actual change than you can dream about.

    I'm counting 3 board TOS violations in this one thread (2 incidents of kw stuffing and then not respecting moderation of the board by public posting moderation instead of emailing/pm'ing the administrator). Additionally, I've seen Haiko edit a couple of your posts in the past for kw stuffing, so this isn't even the first time. All of the offenses are bannable, yet I see Haiko has let you stay and has done nothing more than to enforce board policy as he would for anyone else and have you follow the rules set forth to (which you agreed to when you became a member). Again follow the rules like everyone else and there's no problem.

    If Haiko was smart and serious about educating the public he'd post links to your articles himself.
    If he was smart and serious????? ::beats Mike repeatedly over the head with the biggest clue stick she can find::

    And you would post such utter insulting drivel for what reason Mike? Especially after all the times that Haiko has stood up for you in attempts at fairness when people (lots of them at times) wanted your butt off this board?

    And yeah, I'm a bit annoyed reading this thread first thing on a Monday morning when it amounts to nothing more than someone acting like a 2 year old because they got their kw stuffed links edited.

    I've told you this more than one time Ben. USE the dang sig feature of this board to get your backlinks.

  7. #7
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecomcity
    If Haiko was smart and serious about educating the public he'd post links to your articles himself.
    Mike - questioning if Haiko is smart and/or serious was out of line. Haiko himself has posted links to Edelman's pages many times before. Go ahead and search for them - I did just to make absolutely sure cuz your post surprised me.

  8. #8
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Well, it looks like I'll be posting this information elsewhere instead, since apparently the free exchange of information is not possible here.
    Yeah and I've seen you post that one elsewhere more than once. If you are going to do that than do it but stop with all the empty threats.

    But be very very very clear on something. If you decide do that, it's your own choice and your own decision. It will have nothing to do with Haiko impeding exchange of information. Even if he was to ban you, it would because of your own choices to repeatedly not follow the rules here. Take some responsibility for your own actions and choices.

    And again PROVE that the free exchange of information is not possible here! I don't know where you get off making such claims! Have you ever paid Haiko one dime for any of your posts here? How many posts are made here each month??

    This WHOLE forum is about free exchange of information and Haiko has taken a lot of crap over the years to make sure that this is a place where free exchange of information can happen. And you are going to make such a statement because you get your knickers in a wad because he edited your anchor text of some links? As far as the second edit, maybe if *you* hadn't done the same thing again after just being moderated the post would have stayed. That was the consequence of your own actions, don't lay that at Haiko's feet.

  9. #9
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Cool
    Who's surprised by Ben's announcement that the 180Solutions team struck back at the Linkshare AM group, who got their merchants on that list as a commission relief concession....and spiff. I'm sure Ben was watching for it coming as the Zango/nCase attack dog was turned loose. Treat it as a bonus to you Ms.B as that pool of protected merchants will want some impact studies done to see where new double dipping/cookie stuffing holes have be opened.

    I love it when the so called "muzzled" blackhat BHO's show their butts to their enablers and those turning a blind eye to their stealing from domain bound affiliates. I'm seeking some backlash in the media from those protected domains getting targeted by their competitors AM firms. Cat fights going off all over the place pitting the gluttonous Adwhore trio.... Gator-WhenU & 180Solutions... to a point where even ValueClick feels threatened enough to yank 180Solutions and all riding their theftware train.

    The Adwhore battle has begun on all fronts and the media is clamoring for some ammo to get into some battle coverage. Smart move would be for ABWers to build a Spyware/Adware/Malware page with links the Ben's pages, Ms. B's site and a treasury of articles to up the rankings in the SE's for any and all those screaming for some ethics in advertising. Educating the media and web surfers begins at the SERPs and Ben's freely published words goes beyond just theory and conjecture.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

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  10. #10
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    moderation mistakes, reading the rules, and taking a breather
    This will be my last post in ABW for some time. I'm going to take a breather -- maybe come back in a while, maybe not, as I prefer.

    My initial post was not keyword stuffing. Haiko may say it was. But the fact is, I used appropriate and helpful labeling of, count 'em, two links.

    What would spam look like? For me to infer spam, in an otherwise-helpful posting, I'd look for "a lot" of links (not sure how many, but more than two) and for messages re-posted to multiple threads in multiple forums. I'd look for keywords that are irrelevant or bogus. In short, I'd look for clear evidence of intent before attacking a participant with the "spam" accusation. It's a serious accusation, and it should be reserved for those cases where the fact back up the accusation.

    Interestingly, the ABW Rules also set out a high standard, defining spam as "postings designed 'only' to drive traffic to a ... site" (emphasis added). Haiko may accuse me of bad intentions, but surely he woudn't say my "only" intent was to get traffic. (Clearly my posts had another intent, i.e. to inform.) So under the board's stated rules, my initial message just was not spam.

    Haiko could have written rules that say "no member shall post any link to his own site" or "no member shall use the link-labeling feature to label any link to his own site." But he didn't. And there's a good reason why he didn't: It's helpful for board members to link to their own sites, and label such links appropriately, as I did.

    My second (now-deleted) message expressed disappointment that this was becoming a thread about keyword-stuffing rather than a thread about 180's recent actions and their serious effects on so many big LS merchants. That's too bad -- it seems to me that ABW members would have been better served by a thread that stuck to the substance. I'm disappointed, but perhaps my expectations are unrealistic.

  11. #11
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    TOS Violation #4

    Board Moderation

    Board moderators' decisions (including, but not limited to: editing, moving, deleting of single posts or entire threads) are final. You will accept this. Also, you will not re-edit a message that has already been edited by a moderator or the administrator out of defiance of the original edit. Starting discussing such a decision on the board, will get you either a ban-warning or banned (in our sole discretion). If you feel that you have be treated wrongly, please contact us via this form and we will look into it and review the situation and any/all circumstances. During the review period we may disable your access to the board and/or close the appropriate thread. Any creation of new aliases on the board by an offender / suspended or banned will immediately result in full denial of review and a full IP ban.
    For anyone else who may unclear as to what keyword stuffing of links means, I'll try to explain it. It is the use of keywords in the anchor text of your hyperlink (which most of us realize here is a SEO technique).

    Here's some examples of what would and would not be acceptable with regards to the kw stuffing board policy:

    http://www.mydomain.com (acceptable)
    http://www.mydomain.com/page.html (acceptable)
    Click here for further information (acceptable)
    Full story (acceptable)
    Product Name Keyword (not acceptable)
    Keywords for linked to Article (not acceptable)
    Keywords of linked to page (not acceptable)

    The keyword stuffing policy is not related to the number of links contained within the thread but rather the content of the anchor text of each individual link.

  12. #12
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    Just a quick comment then I'll skip outta here...... Ben, Haiko and Ms. B, you are all working towards a goal that will effect affiliates positively. Some arguments or comments are best resolved by phone, rather than posting, because frankly you all can write some pretty good zingers, and it's not in my businesses' interest to have you three ticked off at each other. Do me a favor, call eachother and group hug or something, then get back to doing what you three do best, which is kicking bad guy hiney.

  13. #13
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    My second (now-deleted) message expressed disappointment that this was becoming a thread about keyword-stuffing rather than a thread about 180's recent actions and their serious effects on so many big LS merchants. That's too bad -- it seems to me that ABW members would have been better served by a thread that stuck to the substance. I'm disappointed, but perhaps my expectations are unrealistic.
    Don't know what Sal posted originally but the only other post before your second one was SSanf who was on topic. So if anyone took the thread off topic about it was you in your second post. I don't see anyone saying squat about it except Haiko in his reason for the edit. (a courtsey to members just to let them know why a post was edited). And yes, ABW members would have been better served if you had just accepted the rules and stayed on topic.

  14. #14
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    Keyword Stuffing

  15. #15
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    I am really, really really disappointed that the territorial sniping is still going on. In fact I'm astonished that the sniping is still going on. There's been feedback in the past that this community isn't interested in watching you guys have a shoving match. As EC said, work it out in private, please. If you can't work it out just do what we're always being told, use the ignore button.

  16. #16
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Could you please clarify what is considered keyword stuffing?

    Does it only apply when linking to your own domains?
    Does it apply when linking to internal ABW pages?

    I've used this type of linking quite a bit here, because it's the least obtrustive. People who don't care about the links can just read the text. People who want more details can click on the linked keyword(s).
    Michael Coley
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  17. #17
    ABW Ambassador qball0213's Avatar
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    Wow, so using discriptive text in the link is now keyword stuffing? What it the web coming too.

    Back to the main point of the thread, let's look for examples of them popping over overstock links, see if we can't stir this up a little.

  18. #18
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
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    Don't know what Sal posted originally but the only other post before your second one was SSanf who was on topic.
    Kellie,

    I thought that you can see a copy of what I posted and deleted after a few seconds, but this is what I had posted:
    ========================================
    .......................... what triggered this policy change
    and more
    What else but and

    ========================================
    That was what I posted, the reason I deleted was because I didn't wanted to be the first one to reply, but as anyone can see, I didn't really post nothing.

    Sal.

  19. #19
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    Ben, Ben, Ben, we all need to take a break from time to time.
    I'm sure Haiko is taking a lot of cr@p everyday. We're all p@ssed off at one time or an other. I was mad like hell to edit my registery by hand, yesterday, because a 1st.1stbar was loading again and again 180solutions. We all have our moods.
    Benelman - I'm disappointed, but perhaps my expectations are unrealistic.
    No, they are not. Just give everybody some time to think about what's happening. Don't give up. Come back with more good stuff.

  20. #20
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    My statement was in context to SSanf's post of CJ's hand possibly being in the fact that LS Merchants are no longer on the exclusion list.

    If 180 had the exclusion list in order to compliant with the LS Addendum and 180 is no longer a part of LS, then I would think they don't feel the need to be compliant with the LS Addendum and hence no need for the exclusion list? All that I was saying.

  21. #21
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Ben,

    First of all, the two links are two of how many you've done? With duplicate content being posted by some (yes, you also) and keyword stuffing (or as you call it - "helpful and clear link labels" (LOL), I need to protect against any negative SEO aspect that may affect the long term purpose of the board, it really is that simple.

    As for the "rel=nofollow spec" why should I have to implement it, there are rules, I've edited posts before and asked that you and others do not to do it, so just don't do it and all is fine, what is so hard to understand?

    Thank you.

    =============
    Mike,

    All I want to say to you is: http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread...light=donation


    This thread was split from Ben's original updated 180 list thread dated 4/3/05 in this same forum, this split thread is no closed.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

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