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  1. #1
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    nativeremedies
    Hi, everybody.
    I'm an affiliate of nativeremedies[dot]net. When I make a sale - on my shareasale's account adding my comission.

    Then nativeremedies's support send me a letter:

    "Regarding the transaction detail below, three affiliates received credit for the same invoice and sale. Due to the fact that we cannot determine which affiliate site was first clicked upon, our policy is to split the commission between the affiliates. Your new correct commission amount is $3.00. Thank you for your understanding and if you have any questions, please contact us."

    And after that, they take off a half of my comission. It already repeated several times.
    Are they cheating me? Or not?
    Thanks.
    p.s. Sorry for my english

  2. #2
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    I was going to yell "crooks," but I see they also have an "in-house" affiliate program. It could be that customers are clicking links for both that program and the SAS program, before buying. In that case the purchase could trigger a double commission.

    I believe that there is a way to avoid that problem, because other merchants with multiple affiliate programs do not seem to have that difficulty. Perhaps SAS could help them more with proper implementaton!
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  3. #3
    Affiliate Coach sstark's Avatar
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    well keep us posted, I am intreigued to see how this one pans out.

  4. #4
    ShareASale President/CEO and ABW Veteran Brian - ShareASale's Avatar
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    That is their policy, to split commissions. It is listed in their "Affiliate Agreement" with ShareASale...
    Thanks,

    Brian Littleton
    President/CEO - ShareASale.com, Inc.

  5. #5
    Content $ Queen Ebudae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by holm_off
    Hi, everybody.


    "Due to the fact that we cannot determine which affiliate site was first clicked upon, our policy is to split the commission between the affiliates. "
    I always thought it was the LAST site clicked on that got credit for the sale.

    And why can't they tell which site was last (or first)?

    Ebudae


  6. #6
    ShareASale President/CEO and ABW Veteran Brian - ShareASale's Avatar
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    Ebudae,

    They use multiple platforms.... If you want details on their policies though you should contact the merchant...
    Thanks,

    Brian Littleton
    President/CEO - ShareASale.com, Inc.

  7. #7
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    We have high search rankings for this merchant and sold their products for well over a year. Starting since late December however they suddenly started editing commissions to halve, and usually when the amount is higher to split into three, the payments thus taking back most of the commission. We spoke to them on the phone about this, and they said they do this because they have a one year return policy and when items are returned after the 30 day lockout on ShareASale, they have no other way to take back their money from affiliates.

    Then in email they claimed it is because of double or tripple commissions. There is no way to verify their claims, and it is highly dishonest in our opinion to implement their own merchant program which enables them, once a user has clicked through to their own site and perhaps also clicked on something there, to then claim it is a split commission and so pay themselves (or some other unknown affiliate) a cut.

    If you sort ShareASale merchants by EPC, you will find of ALL the merchants NativeRemedies comes up in the top 5 or so. ShareASale say that the EPC does take into consideration these edits and so still reflects a high EPC. On the phone their affiliate manager also said that they would have to manually check where a commission first came from, it is not an automatic process, and they cannot always do this, and as a result of our complaint said they will start notifying affiliates of such edits, by email, and that that also has to be done manually.

    If I am allowed to say so in here (being still new to the forums), we do not like these non-transparent policies but also after conversations with ShareASale over this issue, the SAS policy is not to direct affiliates to which programs they should or not participate in, but it is up to us to use the statistics and do some research. Personally, I think it smells badly, and I have a nose of such things based on past experiences, but naturally you have to make up your own minds.

    I'd say this is probably NOT a merchant that is to be recommended based on the fact that suddenly and only in the past 2 months, since mid or late December, they have been editing and cutting in half or one third an awful lot of commissions, that there is no transparency or accountability, that they give various reasons for doing so which are contradictory, and that there should surely be ways to determine where a referral first came from within their systems. Not having such systems in place, clearly would benefit them if they have a hand in their own affiliate program.

  8. #8
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    Native Remedies has done the split commissions with me also!

    Their New tactic (I think their ripping us off) is that they VOID the commissions and say it was a VOIDED Other - Wholesale order Sale

    - WTF?

    I say dump Em!

  9. #9
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    NativeRemedies IS lying and cheating, ShareASale says 'talk to them, not us'
    Leader said:

    I was going to yell "crooks," but I see they also have an "in-house" affiliate program. It could be that customers are clicking links for both that program and the SAS program, before buying. In that case the purchase could trigger a double commission.

    I believe that there is a way to avoid that problem, because other merchants with multiple affiliate programs do not seem to have that difficulty. Perhaps SAS could help them more with proper implementaton!
    Yes, what NativeRemedies have started doing, and Dee their Affiliate Manager knows this only too well is they have a clever program to cheat hard working affiliates of ShareASale, which I will outline how they do it below.

    But first, when they were caught out contradicting themselves (lying) after contacting them by phone and email, this is what ShareASale's response is, both on the phone and in this forum:

    SAS says:

    That is their policy, to split commissions. It is listed in their "Affiliate Agreement" with ShareASale...

    They use multiple platforms.... If you want details on their policies though you should contact the merchant...
    Well yes Brian, you guys make money from them, so why cut them off? Why get in the middle in anything other than money collection? Well, you should get in the middle because your interests should also lie in protecting your affiliates. You should investigate this matter, because here is what they are doing, and what your system is allowing, and in my opinion shouldn't be:

    THE NATIVE REMEDIES CON

    First, being new to affiliate marketing on the web, sign up with SAS and later even with an additional affiliate (so that you can cut SAS affiliate commissions in one THIRD)

    Next, make your own affiliate program which picks up visitors to your site and registers those, so that anyone who clicks elsewhere ALSO gets covered by your own program.

    Now, any SAS sales, whenever you want a bit of easy money, just use the EDIT facility of SAS and cut commissions in two. Hey it's manual work, but it pays off. If asked, you just say you can't tell where they came first - funny of course, since they always end on your site and so get counted there anyway, plenty of easy ways to ensure that!

    Additionally, whenever you see a commission sale on SAS that is HIGHER, just cut it in three. Because you can always claim that the sale registered on all 3 of your 'programs' since SAS certainly aren't going to follow you up and check!

    Well, problem is, we did. And just by some basic detective work, and a nose for irregularities, we smelt it and NR verified it - and contradicted themselves on the phone and in email, telling two different stories, when they saw that we were not so stupid after all.

    EXCUSE 1: Mentioned above (the multiple tracking trick)

    EXCUSE 2: SAS don't allow us to cancel sales a month after they've taken place, but we have this wonderful con-trick where we tell our customers they can buy any herbs and give them back within a year and we'll refund them.

    Now, the problem I have with this is that I worked hard to get pages up in high search rankings for your products. 10,000 hours of hard work, creating 30,000 pages and 45,000 links. That's how hard I worked, and that's why you get your sales through me. Yes, I don't only sell your stuff, but you are not paying me for all 10,000 hours of work are you.

    The next problem I have, is I don't have the time to chase up this obvious con with plenty of evidence and proofs (not that hard to do actually, but still takes few hours of work), because that is something I consider SAS should do - well in an ideal world, at least.

    No, I'd rather wait till I have the time, then if still this con is in place, after gathering some other affiliates who have the same problems so that we can share data over Skype, then publish a nice juicy news research article about affiliate programs and the cons - the downside of modern capitalism (pity the dollar is about to go completely bust but at least it wipes off 8 billion of debt that is rising more than 1 million dollars each minute, but that's another story)

    I'd also like to use a half million dollars of expected venture capital to launch a program in partnership with a database technology company that would have the following features at least:

    1.) avoids reliance on US dollars and fixes prices for foreign eg European goods and sales at a selectable exchange rate, eg the Euro and

    2.) would have full visibility over both merchant and affiliate metrics and thus pick up any such cons and

    3.) ban anyone in violation of either cheating merchants, or affiliates/publishers, or clients and

    4.) that uses a payment system that is sound (as is the SAS system by the way, but for example PayPal is NOT of course, as PayPal is also another con, see elsewhere on the web as to why for that off topic issue).

    I think that such an investment would pay off when partnered with sites with high quality traffic and/or high page ranks, reputable honest companies (those are often small, not necessarily big ones) and hard working affiliates.

    Or correct me if I have got something wrong here, beyond the fine print etc.?

  10. #10
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    Something should be done about this Merchant
    It's time for affiliates to FIGHT Back (NATIVE REMEDIES )

    I believe this is a SHADY merchant and in my opinion should be deleted from SAS. (Then we can try CJ or LS OR wherever they have programs)

    Is there any affiliate here that has a positive view of Nativeremedies?

    If you are a member of any other message boards also mention them there and anywhere else you can to discredit them.

    Native Remedies Here Me Over Here

  11. #11
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    Are their products unique?

    Can you rip out their links and replace them with similar products.

    THEN discuss the matter with them. If they won't improve the situation you'll be all set to go.

  12. #12
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    Wow! I'm glad I checked in tonite and saw these posting on NR -- I was just about to create several pages for them. This saved me some time.

    Unfortunately, their products are pretty unique. You would have a hard time replacing them.

  13. #13
    ShareASale President/CEO and ABW Veteran Brian - ShareASale's Avatar
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    NativeRemedies has a workshop with a Q&A session scheduled for tomorrow... if you have questions about their program this could be a great opportunity to voice them to their affiliate manager as well as with other affiliates.
    Thanks,

    Brian Littleton
    President/CEO - ShareASale.com, Inc.

  14. #14
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    Well it could have helped to post a link to where that information is - there is nothing mentioned on their site as far as I see, and although I DID see that info somewhere some weeks back, unless it is an online conference, I'll assume it is one that you have to physically show up at. I don't think I'll pay thousands to dollars to fly to the USA, have my DNA and so on scanned and held in a dangerous computer that could be possibly accessed in future by terrorists, all just so I can get answers to what I already asked and received answers from their affiliate manager, both on the phone and in Emails? As I explained above Brian, I already got the answers. SAS answer is a standard "it's not our problem, deal with them one" that you reaffirm in your latest post, and that is fine. Just does not make affiliates feel so confident when you cannot also do some checking, control and verification to get parasites out. Your company has even confirmed that your special choice level of programs does not do so, so thus far I see no incentive to join that program either. But I am still learning, so will hang around to see how all this works, before spending more time or money, to see if that time and money should be spent within this program or in creating some other program or venture.

  15. #15
    ShareASale President/CEO and ABW Veteran Brian - ShareASale's Avatar
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    a2020,

    ????

    The conference call/chat session info is here if you want it. http://www.nativeremedies.com/affiliates

    I didn't really follow the rest of your post.
    Thanks,

    Brian Littleton
    President/CEO - ShareASale.com, Inc.

  16. #16
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    Great diplomacy bro!

    The NR session "Please join us Tuesday, March 13, at 8 p.m. EST for an informative Affiliate Workshop Chat" is just fine for the USA, but not for any one else. The rest of the world is asleep at that time.

    I hope some folks in here will address these issues with them, and warn other potential affiliates that NR have been caught:

    * Lying (politely: 'contradicting' themselves with conflicting answers/excuses)
    * Cheating (politely: making free and regular use of the edit feature to cut commissions in one third)

    And for the details, see the above thread of search this forum for recent posts about Native Remedies. If anyone needs a copy of the correspondence that details the issues and the responses of their Affiliate Manager, send me a PM.

  17. #17
    ShareASale President/CEO and ABW Veteran Brian - ShareASale's Avatar
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    a2020,

    Sorry you won't be able to participate... I will agree with you that it isn't very good timing for anyone not in the USA, but considering that is where most of their affiliates are located it was probably the best decision for them overall. It is difficult, from experience, to try to schedule online conferences specifically for this reason... there is a desire to accomodate everyone, but it is nearly impossible to do so.

    If they had held it at a time that worked for you would you have attended though?

    I guess my point is that NativeRemedies has developed a policy to deal with the complications of running a multiple network programs in a complex search environment. If you don't like the policy, you can do two things....

    1. Speak up, work for change of the policy.
    2. Move on to another program and vote with your "feet" so to speak...

    Please note that the other most common solution for this problem that NR faces is to attempt to determine the "last click" in, and give full commission to that affiliate while giving none ($0) to the others. Would this be a preferable policy? I would argue that the results will be pretty similar over time (averages out...)
    Thanks,

    Brian Littleton
    President/CEO - ShareASale.com, Inc.

  18. #18
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    Hi, thanks for the reply. Yes, would most definately have attended if the time was USA early morning. Of course no time zone is good for all, and the evening is best for USA. My issue, as stated earlier, is the dishonesty. Of course in the scenario you give, however, this is not how they operate, as it just is not possible to have many people get directed from THREE different programs and end up on their site that way. It does not stand to reason. However, I described earlier how it WOULD stand to reason, and that is by cheating, ie with their OWN affiliate program that can be counted (rightly or wrongly) when visitors land on their site. But your edit facility at SAS simply allows any one with multiple programs anyway to use that as an excuse to cut any larger commissions WILLY NILLY into three, because you do not demand, nor have, the facility to see or verify that they are not doing it willy nilly. Yes vote with feet, that is agreed, perhaps even vote with more than feet.

  19. #19
    Newbie BPP's Avatar
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    i just realized there was workshop, signed up kinda late (to register) but no confirm yet so i could not ask about this stuff b/c i got approved in SAS & in Kol -- it kinda happened at same time.

    so i am anxious to hear from anyone who did get into the workshop and who did bring this issue up.

    meanwhile will conduct some short-term experiment w/aff links from both of their aff programs (w/tracking) to see what we experience .....

    feedback/suggestions from others would be valuable about this, yes?
    some of this stuff sucks

  20. #20
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    One form of testing should take the form of clearing out all cookies, logging in from a new IP, using a different browser perhaps, and then clicking on a SAS affiliate link to NR and making a purchase. If someone is willing to coordinate that with us - we will do the following:

    * Supply the alternative IP if not available
    * Supply the link from our side to click on
    * Reimburse you the commission plus extra $10 via PayPal (gross)

    Then we see if those commissions are split. However, it needs doing by others who are also very familiar with cookies, IP numbers, headers etc. to ensure that the result is accurate and undisputable.

    The other prerequisite is that you actually purchase something from them that is useful to you or that is covered by their returns policy (in which case we don't need to worry about reimbursing commissions later as those will be cancelled), and also these actions are best coordinated with our webmaster via Skype or Gmail.

    Some actual testing/policing of this in coordination would be very effective: until NR find out we're doing it, we can catch them out and then give it the massive publicity it deserves (we're a news network, and this can be a news item under Corporate Accountability), if/after they discover we're doing it they'll likely stop doing it as they can be caught out.

    I'd recommend this for NR simply because our own investigations conclude already that they are doing things wrong, and this is one of the higher paying programs that actually works (worked, till they started this editing under excuse of multiple commissions). It wouldn't be recommended to go to coordinated lengths for new programs that are untested, or dont have a good conversion record. If some serious WM's join in this together with us, we could even do it for other programs in future, even offer this testing service to affiliates on a fee basis in future.

  21. #21
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    And how many posts are required by newbies in this forum, before

  22. #22
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    before we can send and receive PM's via this forum?

  23. #23
    Newbie BPP's Avatar
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    Question
    How did this turn out? Any news or updates from any of those who were at the conference call/workshop?


    [And I concur with and echo a2020 above -- geez how long / how many does it take to PM and view profiles, etc?]
    some of this stuff sucks

  24. #24
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPP
    How did this turn out? Any news or updates from any of those who were at the conference call/workshop?


    [And I concur with and echo a2020 above -- geez how long / how many does it take to PM and view profiles, etc?]

    http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=55801 it's in there . . .

  25. #25
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    Hi,

    I am Dee Braun, the affiliate manager for Native Remedies. I am truly disturbed to find these postings, because I can tell you that this is probably the best, most honorable company I have ever represented, and to see them being accused of being "crooks" or "thieves" is an injustice.

    I certainly do appreciate any and all concerns regarding commissions, which are hard earned by you and honored and appreciated by us. However, there is a very simple reason and explanation for the commission adjustments, and I have gone to great lengths to personally address this with some of those posting here. The solution to this is complex and probably not achievable by us alone; it would require technical collaboration between the programming staff of two (actually three) affiliate networks, and I am not sure any one of them is motivated to do so.

    Native Remedies runs three affiliate networks.

    1. One is via MyAffiliate Program (MYAP, by Kowabunga). This is an in-house managed program, with over 2,000 affiliates, many of whom generate significant commissions and business.

    2. One is via ShareASale (SAS), similar in size and performance, with a growing network which we respect and appreciate.

    3. One is with clixGalore - far smaller, but growing.

    In all three cases, the technology is provided to us as a service on a hosted basis, and we have no access to the back-end code.

    As you all know, affiliate programs operate by placing cookies on the user's system when any affiliate link is clicked. And, within a program such as SAS, the policy is that the LAST click is the affiliate to get credit. That works great for the SAS network, and the last affiliate gets credit. Similarly, for MYAP and clixGalore, cookie tracking by that piece of software will credit the LAST affiliate to get a click.

    If we were running just one network, we would have no issue - and did not until we added the two new networks (SAS and clixGalore) in Mid-2005, and they became more productive. Contrary to what one of the posters said in this thread, split commissions have been happening since SAS and Clix were added as affiliate network options.

    The problem of duplicate and triplicate commissions arises because:

    a. While each network tracks the last click in its software, each program in totally UNAWARE of the other programs - since their software systems do not interface in any way.

    b. Thus if affiliate SAS1 gets a click, then MYAP1 gets a click, each network calculates a commission. In this case, if the software interfaced, MYAP1 would get full commission, and SAS1 nothing.

    c. If on another sale, MYAP1 gets a click, then SAS1, the commission should go to SAS1, and nothing to MYAP1.

    d. However, because the systems do not interface, two complete commissions are calculated. If we had a way of knowing which cookie was placed first, we could totally back out the commission for one or the other, but:

    (i) Would you be happy to see a 100% reversal? We don't think you would be any happier than getting a 50% reversal.
    (ii) We have no software/automated way of identifying the cookie timing, and thus no way of preventing commissions being generated.

    So, our policy, clearly posted (along with all of our policies) has been to split commissions. We believe this is the fairest way, since that way each affiliate involved is given commissions, and if one considers the odds, what you might lose on one you probably gain on another, since it is likely that you would have been the last click on some and not others.

    Of course, with a third network involved the split is 3-way. This is less likely to occur but does sometimes. And contrary to one posting's assertion that this happens on larger transactions, these splits happen on commissions of all sizes.

    As we see it, our only solutions to this are:

    1. Have SAS, MYAP and clixGalore collaborate to read each other's cookies and determine timing to generate commissions. I am not even sure if this is technically possible, given that cookies can only be read by the depositing system, for good reason! Additionally, we do not see this ever being accepted as a project by the three companies.

    2. Eliminate SAS and clixGalore as programs, and run only the one in-house program that has been operation for 5 years now. We do not want to do this, since we believe this is an overall win-win for all of us.

    I can tell this, as someone who has run multiple programs for multiple companies:

    * Native Remedies is an honorable a company as I have ever worked for. They have honored every promise they make to their customers and business partners, often to their own detriment, but always to build the trust in the partnership.

    * They are committed to the success of their affiliate partners. How many companies do you know of (other than the Affiliate Networks themselves) who have applied so much resource to assisting their affiliates. We operate a free Affiliate Resource Center (http://www.nativeremedies.com/affiliates/) where any of our affiliates can participate. There you can:

    - Get access to free, fantastic materials to help you with your program's performance, from tips on SEO to PPC tactics and more
    - Share ideas with other affiliates to learn what works for them
    - Attend a FREE bi-weekly training session where I cover specific topics, and solicit questions and feedback.

    Not many companies out there invest in a full time manager and an actively managed resource center as Native Remedies does.

    I invite feedback and questions. I will work to resolve personal issues and upsets. But I ask that you sit back and review the above, and in all honesty tell me what more we can do other than shut down two of the networks?

    Thanks to you all,

    Dee

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