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  1. #1
    ABW Ambassador
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    That Intrusive, Parasitic Lillian Vernon Live Person Stalking
    You go to the site and in a matter of seconds that window is literally stalking you with an offer of how you can SAVE MONEY TODAY if you *click here*. How? Let the lovely lady help you find what you want and help you place your order.

    You have to order through the cart to get commission and that does not happen according to one of the Live Leeches in the window when I pinned her down and insisted and would not give up - not when they place your order for you, which they HOUND you to do with their "window of commission death".

    Affiliate commissions? Bend down, lean over and kiss your sweet a** goodbye.

    ADDENDUM:

    I spent a summer in New Hampshire when I was 12, and there was a lake nearby you couldn't swim in because LEECHES would ATTACH themselves to you and suck your blood.

    That is EXACTLy what that window does at that site - mind you, even when you've come directly by clicking from Linkshare - it attaches itself to you and hangs on until it sucks up whatever piddley, puny little few cents affiliate commission would have been paid, with their puny little percentage to begin with and the *generous* 14 days they finally condescended to after MOST sales were AFTER their 10 day nonsense.

    Lilly's Kids can go fly a kite, AFAIC.

  2. #2
    Moderator leeann's Avatar
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    Maybe she doesn't work early Sunday mornings. I don't see it.
    leeann


    Shoppers determine what has value and they like coupons. Stop manipulating who set the cookie just because you do not like coupon and promotional sites.

  3. #3
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    These 3rd party "Live Leech" programs are time bombs set by the call center and Telemarketing industry. Most are operated by competing program affiliates. There are no controls in place for the "Live Leech" popup operators to keep them from planting their affiliate cookie on every popup regardless if you accept their ordering help. They could function like any BHO with referral cookie overwrites with one line of coding. Heck the merchant accepting this customer support freebee, or paying for the script, could even opt to set a house account cookie overwriting the legit referral cookie.

    My take is that if the merchnat AM is too afraid to post openly at ABW, and they run a "Live Leech" app, I don't promote them at all. Trust only goes to those who earn it.
    Last edited by ecomcity; June 26th, 2005 at 01:37 PM.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  4. #4
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeann
    Maybe she doesn't work early Sunday mornings. I don't see it.
    then you have to consider the possibility that you hit them from an aff link and perhaps they don't pop it up then, only to newcomers direct.

    hopefully.

  5. #5
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    You hit upon the safeguard available to network enforcement. I got Live Help screens this morning while making advanced coded and normal individual product links for LS merchants. Just while click checking if the products were in stock.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  6. #6
    Newbie NavySeals's Avatar
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    Is there a list of merchants that use these tactics?

    If so, I'd like to see it so I can blacklist them before I put them into my network. Thanks for the heads up!

  7. #7
    My Coffee's Cold, Go Figger
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    They must have taken it down,its not there now.

  8. #8
    Life is Supposed to be Fun! Rexanne's Avatar
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    I just checked and didn't see it. Lillian Vernon is one of the only Linkshare merchants that converts for me, btw. Now I'll be paranoid again. ;-)
    Peace,

    Rexanne

    Rexanne.com
    Loving Everyone's Child Creates Magic


  9. #9
    Member Jazz Times's Avatar
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    This has been an ongoing issue with this company since about last November. There was something about it not coming up when a customer is sent to the site via an affilliate site. I found it to be an unreliable promise, and promptly deleted all of my links. I simply won't promote merchants who treat affiliates this poorly.

    Jazz Times.

  10. #10
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    Exclamation We are not out to get you . . .
    Hi,

    My name is Mary. I am the affiliate manager for Lillian Vernon and Time Life. This is my first post on this site, though I visit often. I would like to set the record straight about this Live Person stuff.

    1. The chat windows and offers are not supposed to show up when a customer clicks through an affiliate link. If it does when you test it, please let me know so that I could fix the problem.
    2. If a customer clicks into the window and ask for help, but checks out normally, you will still get affiliate credit. The only time the credit does not go to the affiliate is if the customer completes the sales through the Live Person chat window.
    3. I want you all to know I have no control over our company using Live Person as a separate marketing channel. Every sale that goes through them, does not get credited to our teams hard work, so we are on the same side about this issue.

    Finally, it is your choice if you no longer wish to promote us, but I hope you will. And for those of you who continue to promote us, Thank You, and I hope you feel free to contact me regarding any other concerns you may have.

  11. #11
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Exclamation
    Hi, Mary, and Welcome to ABW.

    Nice to hear someone on the other side of the fence talking back.

    Speaking for the others on this thread: it's not easy to promote a company that comes under suspicion.

  12. #12
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Question old business . . .
    say, Mary,

    when the TimeLife program left performics I'm sure a lot of affiliates were owed under-the-limit commissions but were never paid.

    any word on that?

    I've cooled my participation in the program at CJ because of that.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herb ԿԬ
    say, Mary,

    when the TimeLife program left performics I'm sure a lot of affiliates were owed under-the-limit commissions but were never paid.

    any word on that?

    I've cooled my participation in the program at CJ because of that.
    Hi Herb,

    When we moved over we asked affiliates to let us know if they had any unpaid commisions that did not get transfered during the move. The few that did, recieved there pay on their first linkshare check.

    P.S. Thanks for the support!

  14. #14
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmelian
    Hi Herb,

    When we moved over we asked affiliates to let us know if they had any unpaid commisions that did not get transfered during the move. The few that did, recieved there pay on their first linkshare check.

    P.S. Thanks for the support!
    You're welcome, but regarding the checks via LS: never heard a word while in Performics. And I was critical answering the first LS invitation emails, also.

    Maybe the date you asked the affiliates was critical, as I'm sure not all jumped over right away.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herb ԿԬ
    You're welcome, but regarding the checks via LS: never heard a word while in Performics. And I was critical answering the first LS invitation emails, also.

    Maybe the date you asked the affiliates was critical, as I'm sure not all jumped over right away.
    Email me with your info. I have been with the company for almost two years and was around when we made the transition. I will fix the problem for you.

  16. #16
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    will do, and thank you.

  17. #17
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    Herb mentioned in another thread about "high pressure sales techniques" being used so I decided to check it out for myself to see if there was any high pressure to induce ordering through the window.

    A window was following me around saying to "click here" to find out how to get 10% off on today's order. So I did. There's no indication whether it's just information or not, but it's the chat window that comes up. Name changed to Person to protect the identity of the saleswoman.

    Welcome to our Live Chat Service from Lillian Vernon Online!
    You are now being routed to Person.
    Person: You are now chatting with Person, your personal shopping assistant. I can tell you about our online-only specials, help you find what you're looking for and assist with your checkout.
    Person: Hello!
    you: where are the specials?
    Person: Click Here for all of our online sale items.
    Person: By placing your order with me today in chat I would be happy to give you 10% off of any order that totals $50.00 or more. (Can not be combined with any other offer.
    you: is there a special section to find them?
    Person: click on the link above to view the online sale items
    you: so I can't get the 10% off if I order through the cart? even if it's a special?
    Person: I would be happy to process your order and apply the 10% for you:-)
    you: ok. but would I get 10% off if I prefer to order through the cart, with a secure server with no one seeing my info?
    you: could I still get the 10% off or does it have to be through the chat to do that?
    Person: Correct:-)
    you: correct what?
    Person: This chat window is encrypted using 128-bit SSL (Secure Socket Layer) technology. This is the same technology used to secure the online shopping cart. All information exchanged here is secure.
    you: do I get it by ofering through the cart though?
    Person: yes
    you: ordering - pardon
    you: ok.. so I will still get the 10% through the cart - thanks.
    Person: 10% through chat
    you: 10% through chat
    Person: would you prefer to order on your own?
    you: would there be 10% off ordering direct through the cart if it's those specials?
    you: well, but I want to know about the 10% off- that can add up.
    Person: Unfortunately not:-(
    you: ah, ok.. thank you very much, I will continue to look around.
    It cannot be combined with any other offer according to the original nag window, and then - you do not get the 10% off unless you order through the chat window. Of course the average consumer won't go as far as I did beause they don't have a reason to, they'll just take the option to order through the window if they want the 10% off.

    So - visitors are being lured IMMEDIATELY upon entering the site with an offer of 10% savings they can only get through chat. Goodbye affiliate cookies, goodbye commission.

    Mary, thank you for posting and making yourself available. However, I have to say that in order to make any kind of show of good faith to affiliates, Lillian Vernon would have to display a number for affiliates - in red with notation to mention the number when ordering - like the affiliate-friendly companies do for phone orders.

    Split commission would be at least some semblance of a show of good faith - and there would be something for us to track with test purchases.

  18. #18
    Life is Supposed to be Fun! Rexanne's Avatar
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    As I tell my kids when they've messed up:

    This is not OK!

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
    Peace,

    Rexanne

    Rexanne.com
    Loving Everyone's Child Creates Magic


  19. #19
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Here's the problem in a nut shell. Lillian Vernon sets up a seperate channel to their affiliates allowing this commissioned 3rd party to hawk LV shoppers within their online store. They won't devulge if this 3rd party is acting as a LS Super affiliate using cookie/cart tracking or booking sales through a Telemarketing type interface. If it's the latter then the LiveHelp telemarketer get to mine the LV customers CC and personal information to sell to the DMA and IAB info brokers + the commission.

    This screams of slitting affiliates throats on return day cookies, bookmarks and LV type-ins. Add in the slew of BHO partnerships forcing click/cookie overwrites competing with the LiveHelp POS attack dogs and poor Mary should be looking for a new job. We should be looking for a new merchant who puts meaning into their return day spin.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  20. #20
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Exclamation umm . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by mmelian
    Email me with your info. I have been with the company for almost two years and was around when we made the transition. I will fix the problem for you.
    well, I tried sending to affiliateteam at timelife.com and I'm getting messages back that the email is delayed. Apparently your system is now trying to put it in affiliate@directholdings.local "can't connect to host"

  21. #21
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    Thanks Herb,

    I'll get that fixed today in the meantime email me at mmelian@directholdings.com

  22. #22
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Cool
    Quote Originally Posted by mmelian
    Thanks Herb,

    I'll get that fixed today in the meantime email me at mmelian@directholdings.com
    done!

  23. #23
    "An Englishman In New York" TJ's Avatar
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    Ok, here are the results of my LilianVernonKids test:

    I clicked a link from an affiliate site and browsed around a little, looked at a few items.... the whole time my status bar was saying "transferring data from server.iad.liveperson.net" but no popup.

    I took a brief visit to kbtoys and then used the back button to return to LV...

    I added an item to my cart, next I browsed some more and then a pop-up rolled across the screen inviting me to save 10% by talking to a live person........

    Rosey Bear Boutique
    Dressy Children's Fashions With Style!
    5% Commission : NYS Merch : Parasite FREE
       Akoss Hosting
    We also provide reseller accounts for ABW members.
    Ask for details


  24. #24
    ABW Ambassador
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    That's sneaky.

    "The only time the credit does not go to the affiliate is if the customer completes the sales through the Live Person chat window."

    How is that even possible since you said "The chat windows and offers are not supposed to show up when a customer clicks through an affiliate link."

    Those popups are also annoying to shoppers, if they want live help they can click a live help banner.

    And in that scenario above if someone clicks over from my site to Lillian Vernon and gets that pop, which seems to happen when someone puts something in their cart or at checkout, it's parasitic. If they made it to checkout or put something in their cart already, they don't need any help, everything was rolling along just fine. You just swooped in at the last moment. Maybe we need a forum in the Parasite section for merchants.

  25. #25
    ABW Ambassador
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    If the popup came up on the return visit with the backbutton within mere minutes, my question is what happened to the cookie on the first visit, when this was in the status bar?

    status bar was saying "transferring data from server.iad.liveperson.net" but no popup.
    In the first paragraph here, it tells a little bit about the capabilities and triggers:

    http://www.liveperson.com/ent/sm_capabilities.asp

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