Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 60
  1. #1
    ABW Ambassador
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Nunya, Business
    Posts
    23,684

  2. #2
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    un-freaking-believable... got to check out my calendar... says June 30th... but it suddenly feels like April 1st...

  3. #3
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    linux, open office, firefox anyone?

  4. #4
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    Why are the big dogs acting as if consumers desire adware?

    Does the popularity of their own anti-spyware beta teach them anything?

    Winning sustainable companies give people what they want and need at a reasonable cost. This move, if brought to fruition by Bill G, will finally and clearly mark the beginning of their decline.

    Personally, I'll embark on linux, open office and firefox type moves the same day they buy Claria.

    Regardless of who, demonstrate to me that I am to be used, rather than fulfilled and gratified by your products, and I will choose to not to do business with you.

    It must be my optimism and belief in people's good side shining through, but I am shocked at this news. I'll say disbelief as well.

    Claria's technology is not something Microsoft should need to buy even if they want to be an Adware player. I am left to assume it's simply the installed base of adware installs they are after.

    Un-freaking-believable.

  5. #5
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    21,609
    Analysts said Microsoft would probably be most interested in the long-term potential of Claria's personalization software rather than its pop-up ads.
    Agreed.

    The marketing model was a duplicate of the adsense one so, to me, this looks to be a good thing -> Bye bye Claria and more AdSense competition - (higher payouts?)
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  6. #6
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    AdSense doesn't change the ads based on the visitors surfing habits...

    Are you saying that it would be a good thing if, by using Claria's tracking techniques, the microsoft could become a pop-up free adware company, using instead of pop-ups, technology to tailor delivered ads based on your individual surfing habits?

    So for you, the nuisance is solely the pop-up window, not the intrusion of your privacy and modeling mistakes that will follow from the assumptions these companies make about you as an individual?

  7. #7
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    The pop-up is not the problem, it is the presently manifested and visible result of the act of spying without my permission.

    I am frightened by your response.

  8. #8
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    And now I am seriously wondering what information my many, many installs (every friend and family PC I could get my hands on) of the Microsoft Anti-Spyware Beta has been collecting...

    It is my understanding that the MS Anti-Spyware has a major overhaul planned for July - this July - always has. Beta to end in July. Maybe they plan to throw ads at us through it? Perhaps it's all been a ruse to remove other spyware and adware so Microsoft can monopolize the adware market?

    If this Claria move is true, let the MS conspiracy theories fly baby. I'll be getting onboard the anti-Microsoft train and be screaming nutty crap till the cows come home. I can see it pulling into the station right now...

    If the "talks with Claria" story is true, and they decide it was a misstep, it'll take a few major firings over there to get me back as an MS fan. The fraction there that likes this idea, should be escorted out the door.

  9. #9
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    And by the way, ElbowCreek was prophetic when he helped me get the title including "heavy on the nuts". I'm going over the edge! Maybe I need lunch... right now I'm thinking Haiko like the idea of pop-up-free adware. Must be my hypo-glycemia kicking in.

    I'll know for sure if I'm bonkers once Ecomcity chimes in. If Mike says Haiko's right and pop-up-free adware is a good thing and that MS buying Claria to personalize ads they deliver is good news, I'll know I'm really out there baby.

  10. #10
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    21,609
    Donuts, easy there buddy, behaviorial marketing is the way to go (conversion wise)and the publishers who have the ad code on their sites could make drastically more than with adsense.

    What Is Behavioral Marketing?
    Behavioral marketing targets consumers based on their behavior on Web sites, rather than purely by the content of pages they visit. Behavioral marketers target consumers by serving ads to predefined segments or categories. These are built with data compiled from clickstream data and IP information.

    A user visits several travel category pages on a particular site, for example. She's then served airline ads. In most cases, the ads are served through a run-of-site (ROS) placement. The user's behavior is the key, not the placement. Source
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  11. #11
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    As they expand what they watch (not just what url's I visit), imagine how much slower your computer will run...

    Is it okay if they look inside your files and analyze your needs and wants and alter what you are shown on the web based on what they've learned about you...

    I going to get a sandwich and have a smoke...

    See you later,
    Donuts

  12. #12
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    21,609
    No ads are good, you think I want to see stupid commercials on TV? full pages in magazines? Adsense or banner ads on the web? Heck No but they will allways be there. What the claria software does is hone the ads to something really relevant to your surfing habits ... why in the world should a dog owner see ads for bird food? That's a complete waste! Behaviorial Marketing via an affiliate program and publisher base (like adsense does) means that If a publisher puts that code on their site, they'll A) earn more as the ads have been honed to that person and B) the publisher will earn more with this that adsense because of A.

    I'd rather have M$ owning this and competing with Google and it benefiting publishers than Claria just getting richer.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  13. #13
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    St Clair Shores MI.
    Posts
    17,328
    I'm waiting word from Mike Nash the Microsoft VP of Sales, who pushed Gates to buy the Anti-Spyware company. Blamer has NEToriously poor his MS earning down the internet toilet by personally funding .com bombs. The Microsoft developers forum is buzzing with outrage over any buyout of Claria/Gator perferring to wipeout Adware/Spyware with their total "OneCare" package. Gates is not a "users choice" kinda guy preferring his successful monopolistic kinda of marketing that is fuel by features not by pushing Ad driven demand.

    His carrot is OneCare for launching Longhorn, which requires whacking all BHO's and their privacy peddling Adwhore brethern along with trojan horse backdoor installs. Do you ever see Microsoft advertising via any BHO? It (purchase) won't happen as gutting the BHO install base with fee based MS OneCare will make any behaviorial Ad targeting technology from Clara available for 10 cents on a dollar ...without the Adware baggage.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  14. #14
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    Let's call Behavioral Marketing by it's proper abbreviation... BM.

    If Microsoft wants to buy a big BM, I've work one up for them personally.

  15. #15
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    21,609
    But contextual via adsense is ok?
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  16. #16
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    As I understand and view it, contextual replaces the ads location from a box marked "ads by google" to a hyperlink under the text that triggered it in the first place.

    Some would argue (including me, until it's so prevalent that everyone recognizes it as such) that it's an ad that's not clearly labeled as an ad.

    And while this does constitute a significant difference between the two, neither involves collecting information on my surfing habits and altering my experience.

  17. #17
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    The Swamp
    Posts
    7,503
    I would think that M$ is more interested in Claria's new Ad Network (BehaviorLinks) over the software per se? BehaviorLinks is not popups but rather web-based ads. My instincts say this is their interest and agree with Haiko in it would give them technology already out there to compete with AdSense.

    So which is more evil behavioral or contextual advertising?? GoogleToolar calls home with every page you view. Is that evil? To some it is, to others not. The 'evil' in behavioral or contextual advertising isn't inherent but rather in how it is implemented. M$ could well take a 'bad' player out of the market and use the underlying technology in such a way that most would feel it isn't problematic (much like how many feel with regards to Google/google toolbar/AdSense).

    Only time will tell and that's if they make the buy. Seems talks may be breaking down on it, but that could be a price neg. thing also.

  18. #18
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    I'd say phase 1 of adware, what exists now without strong BM, is proof enough that phase 2 (that employs a constipatingly large amount of BM) will be a disaster for every consumer. Next, I expect to hear how there will be an allowance to opt-out of being watched and analyzed and modeled. And folks will begin to tell me how great it will be working and why I should opt-in and reap all the benefits that monitored consumers everywhere are enjoying - like those who have adware now.

    If it is so great, why is it snuck unto computers? Let's forget unscrupulous installs for a second, why is adware bundled as a condition to receive something else deemed worthwhile? Do you think BM Adware will be so desired by consumers that they will flock to sites and download it to improve their Internet experience?

    I don't believe data can be collected, analyzed and used responsibly, especially when the end goal is profit AND when the consumer has virtually no control (as is the case today with adware's handling and use of any data collected).

    "Watching" apps will proliferate well beyond what has happened with phase 1. It won't be restricted to average consumers. Perhaps they can monitor my affiliate activities and make some choices for me as well. Perhaps they can monitor your forum users and make better choices for ABestWeb ads that are run. Are you willing to relinquish that control over what your business is and what it offers? Are you willing to have data from ABestWeb harvested by a third-party knowing that they sell that surfing and posting data to your competitors so they can, in turn, outposition and outperform you? When a panel / page at ABestWeb is modified by their data driven software, what if it decides to show me a better place where affiliates most like me like make their home at - will your conversion earned then be worth the cost?

    "why in the world should a dog owner see ads for bird food?"
    Because that dog owner THEMSELF decided to visit a website about birds and what they eat. The dog owner makes the decision, not Microsoft / Claria.

    What if I hate dogs and only agreed to own one because my Mother-in-law, who I despise, made it a condition of inheriting her riches? Observation is the weakest way to know me. And even if you know me and talk to me and spend every waking hour with me, I am inclined to take a turn now and then, no frequently - to cast myself in new directions - make decisions that are inconsistent to an outsider or with my past. I am more than my past actions or sites visited.

    In the grand scheme of things, forgoing BM, if the cost is inefficiency at targeting what the precise next purchase made by a consumer is, then so be it. The alternative, the one you say is good, is the darkest answer I can imagine. As a consumer, I would rather be served random ads than to relinquish control of what I see and visit based on the decisions an adware company hopes to make for me based on what they want or what they think I'll buy. As an affiliate and Internet business person, conversions and profits are not worth the cost and injury to my self-pride and dignity I'd lose by inflicting the world of consumers with this crap.

    Imo, the value, freedom and uniqueness of the individual is not to be sacrificed for profit. Monitoring what I do and serving ads to me based on that, diminishes my humanity. It assumes that a database and someone else's intentions are superior to mine when it comes to deciding what's best for me. If BM is the way of the future, and everyone's Internet experience is altered by Big Brother's personal data collection, not only will I find a new line of work, but as a consumer I will abandon the Internet completely. Or I will go underground and make every human effort possible to trasmit back data that I choose for them to receive. I will not sit idly by and be a guinea pig for someone else's gain. And it ain't because I hold the "gain" part against them - it's because I ain't nobody's guinea pig.

    "Do unto others" Haiko, "do unto others"... if this BM comes, with its higher conversions accompanying it, do you plan to opt in as a consumer?
    Last edited by Donuts; June 30th, 2005 at 02:06 PM. Reason: misspelled unscrupulous - it's probably still wrong...

  19. #19
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    The Swamp
    Posts
    7,503
    Donuts...go get that sandwich.

    Maybe you weren't aware...but dude you ARE being monitored now in your surfing habits. The major sources for behav. targeting doesn't come from software apps. Know where it comes from? ISPs. Yep. Many ISPs sell that info. Right or wrong, it happens and has been happening. There are behav. marketing companies out there much bigger than Gator and they don't use software at all to collect the info.

    Here's the thing:

    Behaviorial advertising means delivering advertising based on known patterns of user surfing behaviors.
    Contextual advertising mean delivering advertising based on the current content the end user is currently viewing.

    That's all either mean. There are many ways to obtain either the known surfing behaviors or the content for either type of ad delivery approach. Some methods are problematic while others aren't so problematic.

    I think the assumption here is that M$ would keep and continue to use the Gator software application if they bought Claria. They may or may not. That might not be the part of the biz they are interested in. Again the web-based ad delivery part of Claria may well be where their interest lies. Along with the advantage of removing a 'competitor' from the market as M$ expands it's search portal and actively goes up against Google. M$ already has their own software app (M$ search toolbar). Would they need the Gator software and all the headaches that come from it? M$ is more than capable of tracking end users surfing behaviors if they want to. I would think the $$$ value in Claria for M$ is the underlying infrastructure technology in how to handle all that data and the ad delivery on other web sites besides their own.

  20. #20
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    The Swamp
    Posts
    7,503
    Another common means of collecting data to utilize behaviorially based ad delivery is very large Networks utilizing the surfing habits across their multiple web properties (ie their own internal logs). There are companies out there with enough web properties and visitors to be able to do this in a meaningful way.

    Many affs here may do this themselves in a much lower tech fashion (with less productive outcomes because their statistical pool isn't as great). But as an affiliate have you ever analyzed your traffic patterns on your sites and tried to correlate that with your Merchant/Network stats to 'target' which ads to serve up to your visitors on particular pages to increase your conversion? Have you used SID's in your URL's so you could tell which sells came which pages so you could maximize the best ads to show on which pages? Or do you just throw up randomly banner ads on pages and hope for the best? Guess what you were doing???? You were attempting to do behaviorially targeted advertising. Were you doing anything wrong? I don't think you were by even though you 'tracked' your end users surfing through your website and tied that to third party tracking (your aff link).

  21. #21
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    Kellie,

    I agree with a lot of what you said, but two points I'd like to add my input:

    1) "M$ could well take a 'bad' player out of the market and use the underlying technology in such a way that most would feel it isn't problematic (much like how many feel with regards to Google/google toolbar/AdSense)"

    By buying Claria, competitors collecting and analzing and modeling will be spurned on, not stunted. I don't see how they could take the bad out of the market - I see their involvement as making BM technology an tracking more prevalent and therefore (and regrettably so) more acceptable.

    2) "The 'evil' in behavioral or contextual advertising isn't inherent but rather in how it is implemented."

    I agree that the evil comes from how it is implemented, specifically, imo, what is done with the data and how specific and individualized the data is. I do believe that collecting personally identifiable data about me is evil when I intentional steps are taken to ensure that I don't know what data is being collected, where it will go and what it will be used for. So without clear consent and information being provided to me, I do see inherent evil.

    I liken this to someone listening into my conversations with people. If I know a marketer who wants to convert me is within ear shot, and it's plainly obvious to me, there's absolutely nothing evil or wrong at all. But if they bug my bathroom without telling me, all is changed. Or if they bug my bathroom and know they can hear me in the front yard, but they forget to mention it, all has changed. If they also forget to tell me that they are recording my conversations and selling them to others including my wife, my pastor, my neighbor who wants to be an affiliate and to the FBI, all has changed. If they snoop into my copy of outlook and learn my mistresses birthday and throw ads for some sexy thongs at me on my computer and the ad says "get these for Susan", well, all has changed (especially letting my wife use my PC).

    BM will not work. Consumers won't allow it. And it is flawed in its core ideals. Observation is not the key to modeling and predicting human behavior, engagement is. There is no shortcut. We are being sold yet another lazy version of the key to success. Even Haiko believes that conversions will be markedly better with BM - and he's not seen it working yet. (Yes, I admit, neither have I - but think this through - this is not the brink of consumer nervana, it is the brink of consumer hell). They will not give you what you want - they will give you what THEY think you want. These two things are not the same thing. Imagine if I examined your history and your cookies and made some decisions about you right now. Go look at your history now and imagine it. Post your last 20 days of sites visited and the cookies and more - all of it - post at ABestWeb and allow us as marketers here to analyze what you should be served. I dare you. The vast majority of conclusions we form will be wrong. In exchange for this, you give up privacy and control and the surprise of new things you should encounter. That's a horrible trade!

  22. #22
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellie aka Ms. B
    Maybe you weren't aware...but dude you ARE being monitored now in your surfing habits.
    Thanks for the news. People with assumptions like yours will be making decisions for me in the BM future.

  23. #23
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellie aka Ms. B
    I think the assumption here is that M$ would keep and continue to use the Gator software application if they bought Claria. They may or may not. That might not be the part of the biz they are interested in.
    Just want to clarify that it wasn't my assumption, it was the linked article's assumption:
    "Software tailored to individual preferences and browsing habits opens the door to personalized advertising. That emerging ad market is of great interest to Microsoft for its MSN Web sites, as it is for Google, which recently began testing services like individually customized Google home pages and software that stores the Web pages a user visits most often, for faster display."

    I hope the article is wrong there.

  24. #24
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    imo....

    Contextual advertising mean delivering advertising based on the current content the end user is currently viewing.
    See where I am, where my interests lie right now and pump an appropriate ad. Like show me a soup ad as I walk into the grocery store on a cold day. Show my wife a bikini ad as we arrive at the beach. Underline some words on a page (or flash an adsense box) that are central to the theme (and the reason why I am likely visiting) of a page I chose to visit.

    Behaviorial advertising means delivering advertising based on known patterns of user surfing behaviors.
    Know what I said to my friend yesterday about what a big dork my old boss is and today showing me penis enlargement ads - even though I'm just trying to log into my MSN email page.


    The latter tracks personal data and tries to extract predictions AND changes what comes my way AND ignores choices I may try to make because it thinks it knows better.

    The latter is also the latest incarnation of the pop-up problem. Claria sees that they can eliminate the pop-up by embedding it into the page before you get there. This is not a solution to the current state of things.

  25. #25
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellie aka Ms. B
    Many affs here may do this themselves in a much lower tech fashion (with less productive outcomes because their statistical pool isn't as great). But as an affiliate have you ever analyzed your traffic patterns on your sites and tried to correlate that with your Merchant/Network stats to 'target' which ads to serve up to your visitors on particular pages to increase your conversion? Have you used SID's in your URL's so you could tell which sells came which pages so you could maximize the best ads to show on which pages? Or do you just throw up randomly banner ads on pages and hope for the best? Guess what you were doing???? You were attempting to do behaviorially targeted advertising. Were you doing anything wrong? I don't think you were by even though you 'tracked' your end users surfing through your website and tied that to third party tracking (your aff link).
    This is a horrible comparison you've made. I neither analyzed individual unique personal data or modeled individual unique future experiences. I make summary judgements about what works for the majority of groups of people. I can and do segment this into smaller and smaller groups, say those that searched for a particular product and such, but I never took the data from one person and imagined I could summarily decide what would be best for that person the next time they came - based only on the data trail they left and planning to create a unique customized path for that one person next time. This task is not possible. I don't mean the data collection or the presentation of a unique experience, but the accuracy of me getting it right (or even remotely close to right, or close to desirable).

    Kellie, will you be opting in to BM as a consumer?

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Microsoft offers to Buy Yahoo!
    By delsol in forum Search Engine Optimization
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: February 3rd, 2008, 02:18 AM
  2. Microsoft Is in Talks To Buy Facebook Stake
    By Trust in forum Midnight Cafe'
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: October 25th, 2007, 12:21 AM
  3. Microsoft To Buy Doubleclick?
    By Trust in forum Google Affiliate Network - GAN
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: April 14th, 2007, 01:35 AM
  4. Microsoft Antispyware “Ignores” Claria
    By zendozen in forum Midnight Cafe'
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: July 15th, 2005, 05:40 PM
  5. Will Microsoft buy Looksmart?
    By smoothcorp_bryan in forum Search Engine Optimization
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: January 14th, 2004, 05:18 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •