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  1. #1
    Affiliate Miester my2cents's Avatar
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    BS or BA needed for AM position [split]
    welcome to ABW...

    the thing that aggrevates me more then anything is every post here is looking for a BA/BS Degree in business, marketing, or related field

    THIS IS PURE BS!!!!!!

    I not talking about some science degree

    what ever happened to experience counting for something.... I would be bet you a dozen gooey, sticky jelly dounts I could run circles around whoever you hire... because I have 30+ self-employment experience (experience you cant get from a book) and 10 years of online experience...

    I have been online pimping my wares since the WWW became available to the masses....

    boy do i feel now better...

    JOe
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    that's my2cents, 'cuz I'm a legend in my own mind....

  2. #2
    Affiliate Manager
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    Me Too!
    LOL... I always felt the same way when seeing job (especially affiliate marketing) opening posts But I know what you mean. I see alot people with those degrees... serving me at McDonalds.

    Quote Originally Posted by my2cents
    welcome to ABW...

    the thing that aggrevates me more then anything is every post here is looking for a BA/BS Degree in business, marketing, or related field

    THIS IS PURE BS!!!!!!

    I not talking about some science degree

    what ever happened to experience counting for something.... I would be bet you a dozen gooey, sticky jelly dounts I could run circles around whoever you hire... because I have 30+ self-employment experience (experience you cant get from a book) and 10 years of online experience...

    I have been online pimping my wares since the WWW became available to the masses....

    boy do i feel now better...

    JOe

  3. #3
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    The degrees show one thing that most self employed can't say ... 4 years dedicated to one thing, granted traditional self made marketers don't need discipline but most kids [grads] do so it's a pre-requisite.

    It's 2005, almost 2006, if companies are looking for an online manager, they should look at experience, but then again.... an exerienced marketer will not work for someone else ... would he/she? Because if they did they'd never see / exerience ther full earnings potential, would they?

    It's almost a catch 22!

    Corps put it in as a qualifier, nothing more. I'm sure footsmart or others will look at resumes without the B.S. (LMAO - it's named correctly)
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  4. #4
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    Rhea's Avatar
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    Hey!

    I worked my ass off for my B.S. degree and it really, really offends me when those of you who chose not to go to college or graduate from college act like the years I put into my education were useless. My college experience was incredibly gratifying and empowering. Not to mention I learned a lot of stuff.

    I don't kick dirt on people who decided to go a different route and neither should you, Haiko. That's just plain disrespectful. Since when did getting an education become something to look down on?

  5. #5
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I didn't mean to Rhea. I appologize.

    I was just saying that 4 years in slaes or other real world experience may be equal to if not better for "hands on" and "everyday" type stuff like being a sales manager. Nothing more!

    People without degrees aren't going to cure cancer, much less deal with the double helix nor nor what dna or rna are, there are those that are aptly suited for that and there are those who are better suited to manage sales and sales people, and quite frankly I doubt that it requires four years of accredited education for that. I'm sorry.

    Once again, sorry If I offended you or anyone else. I did not mean to.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  6. #6
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    Apology accepted.

    I wouldn't have gotten all hot and bothered about it but there have been quite a few posts in the past from various people talking about college as if only saps and stupes pursue it. And the four years I spent in college were really precious to me. Could I have learned the same stuff on my own? Absolutely. In fact I already had learned quite a bit of it just from reading. But...I didn't have the lab equipment the university provided for me to play with and more importantly I didn't have access to all the wonderful, knowledgeable professors. And you know how I love to pester people.

    Frankly, if I could afford to, I'd ditch AM in a heartbeat and become a professional student. Since that's not possible I'm quite content to do AM. Even if sometimes I get a little excited.

  7. #7
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Thanks for accepting my apology.

    I conscribe to the student does better than the teacher theory because the student adds their learned knowledge into the mix and can change with circumstances as needed. So there isn't a "professional student" per se, but ones who are open to learning and bettering themselves, people around them and life/lives.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  8. #8
    Affiliate Miester my2cents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea
    Hey!

    I worked my ass off for my B.S. degree and it really, really offends me when those of you who chose not to go to college or graduate from college act like the years I put into my education were useless. My college experience was incredibly gratifying and empowering. Not to mention I learned a lot of stuff.

    I don't kick dirt on people who decided to go a different route and neither should you, Haiko. That's just plain disrespectful. Since when did getting an education become something to look down on?
    I never ment to offend yuou Rhea... it is true that many who go to college and get a degree learn a lot and are better becuase of the experience...

    MY wife and daughter are excellent examples of this... my point was that many human resources types... think if you dont have a sheep skin... you belong at the business end of a broom... not in the broad room...

    My point is some of us didin't have the option of college for various reasons and because of our life experiences we are better equiped to handle the regors of an AM position then some 30's something person who is still trying to figure out who they are and what the want to be...

    CASE IN POINT!!! look how often AM's change around here... some of these compaines need a score card to keep track of who is up at bat today....

    this is because they hire young inexperienced AM's many fresh out of college who as soon as they get a few months experience move to a better paying position...

    Many of these AM's we the affiliates train...

    Who here, who has been here a while hasnt sent an email to an AM telling them how to be an AM... I had one a few days ago... who didn't know the difference between a banner and a datafeed... infact he was told to get a couple of banners made and start signing up affiliates... guess we know how much real usable research this company did before launching there program.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko

    The degrees show one thing that most self employed can't say ... 4 years dedicated to one thing, granted traditional self made marketers don't need discipline but most kids [grads] do so it's a pre-requisite.
    i wouldn't have expected a statement like that from you as you are self-employed.. and very dedicated to your business...

    inorder to be successful at self-employment... one has to be disciplined and dedicated the ideas and goals that caused the idea to become an business...

    most business owners have there own money and reputations at risk.. this is not the case for AM's who grab a paycheck every week... and can change jobs every few months

    I have lost count of the number of times my employees have been paid and their was noting left for my paycheck...

    enough of my rant... glad ABW is here for those times I need to vent...... thanks Haiko

    Joe
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    that's my2cents, 'cuz I'm a legend in my own mind....

  9. #9
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    Hey Joe, I know college isn't for everyone. Some people love it...some people hate it...some people just can't make it fit into their lives for financial and other reasons.

    It would be awesome if everyone had the opportunity to at least check it out because it was unlike any other educational experience I'd had. I hated school until I got to college. Hated it, and was a huge underachiever. It wasn't until college that my little light started to shine. And I went to college when I was 38 years old and graduated when I was 41. Three years older and deeply in debt.

    I had a very good career in computers for a lot of years before I got my degree so I'm the last person to argue that a degree is necessary for success. But over time expectations within IT departments changed and the degree became essential.

    I don't know a blessed thing about sales or marketing or advertising other than what I've learned in AM so I can't comment on the necessity of a degree to run an AM program ... but ... a big corporation will want all of its employees who are non-clerical to have a degree in order that they share a common business oriented language.

    Also, what Haiko said about learning discipline while getting a degree is true. You spend a lot of time in college doing things you hate because you have a specific goal to achieve. Graduating college demonstrates, if nothing else, that you are goal oriented. Lots of other activities do that too, but college is a benchmark most employers want these days. Whether it makes sense or not is a different story.

  10. #10
    Internet Cowboy
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    College teaches you many things. In my opinion, above all it teaches you how to plan and execute. College is all about deadlines that must be met and prioritizing in order to meet the deadlines. This is a skill that companies look for in an individual and is a lot of the reason that a degree is required for a lot of jobs.

    In no way do I think that because one individual has a degree, that they are more qualified for a job than someone with a lot of real world experience...BUT the individual with a degree has a proven record of being able to stick to a goal for 4 years and attain this goal as well as a track record of an ability to plan and execute.

    All the business related stuff that one gets from a business degree is secondary, in my opinion of course.


  11. #11
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    Frankly, I'd look at Iraq experience, myself. I figure, a fellow that's been shot at a few times can probably handle any projects I toss his way fairly easily.....
    Following everyone else is a GREAT way to become average.

  12. #12
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    Well my curiosity got the best of me so I posted an education poll at http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=64242.

    I'm half nerd so I kinda like to see the metrics, you know?

  13. #13
    Member seWEB's Avatar
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    I think you guys hijacked this thread big time. Anyway, I'm in sort of a difficult position right now. I've got a B.S. and I am/was over a year into a Masters in an unrelated to net marketing/web development field. However, spending so much time working and traveling in my current capacity has pretty much put my education at a standstill. I still sort of wish I could finish it. Point being, if you're in school and don't have a great job/opportunity, STAY IN SCHOOL! If you do, well then that's when you've got to decide :-)

  14. #14
    Affiliate Miester my2cents's Avatar
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    Sorry JLG didnt mean to hi-jack your thread... I vented and the tread took on a life of it's own...

    Welcome to ABW and Affiliate Marketing... it's not to the thin skined or easily offended..

    Hope you find the applicants you are looking for...

    Joe
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    that's my2cents, 'cuz I'm a legend in my own mind....

  15. #15
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Thread split
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  16. #16
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    Hi,

    I think such is the work of an HR person who undoubtedly knows nothing about affiliate marketing. So, they go the "safe" BA/BS route, and hire someone just out of college who knows nothing, but they will let "grow" into the position, costing them revenue dollars in the process.

  17. #17
    More Cheesier Than Ever Cheesehead's Avatar
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    Interesting thread. I have been on just about all sides of this one - you can figure out what I mean by that!
    This World is Not My Home
    We're gonna go inside, we're gonna go outside, inside and outside. . . And then we're gonna go go go and we're not gonna stop til we get across that goalline! Quotes from the movie Rudy, 1993

  18. #18
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    I think college showing an ability to stick to things is an incorrect presumption. College is just more following orders, like in high school! "Do this homework." "Learn this." "Okay..." Erggh. Also it trains people to not only follow, but *expect* a road map to their goal. This can be a dangerous mindset. The best destinations have no map!! But those who have learned to always follow one, are lost when there isn't any.

    College does have it's points--or, more accurately, what seems to be a stifling monopoly on the high level clue-train tickets needed for certain areas of knowledge--but personal growth was not one of the points I found. The basic structure is very similar to high school--they hand out assignments and the students do them--the improvement over H.S. came simply because the worst jerks didn't ever enter college (or washed out after the first semester)!

    For the record, I did go to college (no degree though), and while it certainly was a VAST improvement over high school (getting out of a zoo is always good), I also prize my ability to NOT do pointless stuff just because somebody dictated it--whether that "somebody" is an empl*yer, or a professor of a class I never wanted to be in anyway and which had nothing to do with what I was majoring/minoring in (for instance, who the F needs to take calculus to understand psychology or English?!? IMO the only thing that kind of requirement helps is the school's accounting office, despite much propaganda to the contrary.).

    I can't say college is bad; it's not. But I didn't think it was all that special, either...

    I'd probably get more out of it now, since I'd have to REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to know something before I'd subject myself to any more school in order to find it out!
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  19. #19
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    Sometimes college and graduate programs are overkill, in my opinion. When you get out in the real world, it's often nothing like what you thought it would be. And while I was still studying, some of my friends went out and got jobs, and I think they're still doing better than I am, without the education. They were gaining actual experience while I was still in a pretend world. I often wonder about those reports showing college grads make more money...doesn't seem to apply in my case!

    Over the years, I've hired a few college grads who couldn't pass simple spelling tests, and they seemed to be as dumb as a box of rocks, so I really wonder if these degrees are worth all the hoopla.

    Andy

  20. #20
    Eternal Optimist Look4's Avatar
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    I'll throw in my 1.5 cents too:

    Why would a middle-large sized company value a BA in Marketing or Business so much?

    Remember, they are looking for someone to work within their organization, as a leader or potential leader, not a free spirit who will do things their own way without concern for the rest of the team.

    1) As so many people have already said, a BA or BS shows that you can stick to something. When I'm hiring and I see someone who has the brains and means to go to college but didn't (or dropped out), my first impression is that they will be someone who always looks for the mythical shortcut to success. If they can't commit to the work involved with college, how can I expect them to commit to the work I expect of them?

    2) I disagree with Leader's assesment that college only teaches to follow orders. Perhap the first year or so seems that way, as the required courses start to wean students from high-school thinking to a different level. But in the last two years there are projects, strategies, and teams that have have to be coordinated. Professors challenge you on the "why" behind things more than they did in high school. For many people (but certainly not all) there is a new, more conceptual way of thinking. Less "follow the directions" and more "figure out a way to get from A to B without breaking the rules." This is why the majority of people in upper levels of most businesses have college degrees - they don't have a high school mindset of "follow the path" - they use conceptual reasoning to cut new paths to new destinations.

    3) Being a success as an affiliate site owner is quite different from being an affiliate manager. A BA or BS in Business or Marketing covers macro and micro economics, social behavior, financial reporting, human resource management models, and supply / delivery management. All these things come into play as a corporate Aff Manager. You can't set up a special campaign if the warehouses are being moved - because they won't be able to deliver - something you have to negotiate with the building and inventory managers for new dates, etc. You have to understand how the CFO's auditors are putting pressure on her for year end reports when you are trying to take up her time with a presentatino on why she should free up money to give to the CTO to fund some new tracking mechanism that you want. You just can't do what's right for you or your departmenet. You have to do what's right for the WHOLE company. Businesses are organisms that look simple from the outside but are incredibly complicated to direct at Sr levels. If you've only had line-level jobs or worked alone, you just can't see those things and be effective in the corporate environment. Having a BA or MBA in business is an important kick-start to getting the understanding needed to function at the Sr Manager or higher level. It's no guarantee that you'll use the knowledge well (and many don't) but at least you've been exposed to all that background.

    So what can you do if you don't have that BA that supposedly qualifies you for your dream position? Well, if you've had a manager role of ANY kind in a decent size business, one with insight into the cross-departmental politics and pressures; highlight it in your resume and cover letter. Don't concentrate only on your success as an Affiliate Publisher with your own web site fiefdom, but also on your ability to lead in a business environment, to see beyond the needs of your own department, and participate in company decision making. That's what businesses are looking for, and if you can provide it without that piece of sheepskin, don't be afraid to give it a try!
    Tom C.
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  21. #21
    Affiliate Miester my2cents's Avatar
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    I mostly agree with you....

    my point is that I think too much weight is put on the degree... to the point without the degree someone without a degree doesn't even get considered...

    JOe
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    that's my2cents, 'cuz I'm a legend in my own mind....

  22. #22
    Troll Killer and best Snooper!
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    Perhap the first year or so seems that way, as the required courses start to wean students from high-school thinking to a different level. But in the last two years there are projects, strategies, and teams that have have to be coordinated. Professors challenge you on the "why" behind things more than they did in high school. For many people (but certainly not all) there is a new, more conceptual way of thinking. Less "follow the directions" and more "figure out a way to get from A to B without breaking the rules." This is why the majority of people in upper levels of most businesses have college degrees - they don't have a high school mindset of "follow the path" - they use conceptual reasoning to cut new paths to new destinations.
    Yes!

    First and second year courses consisted of a lot of memorization and repetitious activities but they were also the groundwork for third and fourth year courses which were highly conceptual. Having been given the information necessary to put the big picture together, 300 and 400 level courses challenged us to find commonalities, differences, overlaps and gaps. It was the 300 and 400 level courses where we developed our critical thinking skills.

  23. #23
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    I think when it comes right down to it, if it were legal for a company to say something like,
    BA or BS required if you are under 30. We will consider experience if you are over 30 and have a proven track record.
    they would probably say this. Unfortunately, this would cause them a law suit if they said it because the 20 somethings would feel discriminated against.
    I started college when I was 30. It was a personal goal to go to college. I did not really go with anything terribly specific in mind, I just wanted to go.


  24. #24
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    If I were looking for an employee, any sort of major accomplishments would be positives: finishing college, starting a business, publishing a book, working their way up through a corporation, etc. Any of those things shows a great deal of determination, persistence, and dedication. It's not just the subjects learned at college that make a college graduate desirable. It's the persistence, study skills, time management, and other intangibles that make the most difference.

    Did you know that on average a person with a post-graduate degree earns almost three times as much as a person who doesn't graduate from high school?
    Michael Coley
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    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  25. #25
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    I once needed to hire from outside the company for a mid-level management position. A woman in her early 50s came in to interview, and while she had some work experience years ago, she had raised a family, helped her husband run a business, and divorced in the meantime.

    I found her recent life experiences to be a strong indication of her abilities, and I hired her. She was promoted to a top level position in less than two years, and everyone who had the opportunity to work with her absolutely loved her, and that included me. Top executives specifically requested her participation in projects.

    She once told me how much she appreciated being given the opportunity, and I told her I knew she could do anything she wanted to. She did things that a college grad would have never thought of, and she had an uncanny ability to be in the right place at the right time with the right plan.

    If a degree were mandatory for the position, she wouldn't have even been interviewed. As it was set up, I was able to override that requirement, so it was a good move for everyone.

    Degrees are great, but given the choice, I'd hire someone with actual experience long before someone with little experience and a degree.

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