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  1. #1
    Newbie xor0's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Hostgator first cookie policy
    Hi Everybody!

    This is a sad tale of a hosting company and some reversed transactions (another one...)

    So I sign up for hostgator's affiliate program and in the first couple of days make two sales. Great! Then they get reversed. Not so great. I talk to Ben @ hostgator and after a bit of prodding he says that hostagtor has a first cookie gets the commission policy, and I quote:

    'it was removed because our in house affiliate system had reffered the commission first.'

    'if say someone clicked on our google advertising we don't allow commissions on that since we were the ones who advertised to the client.'

    'I believe that is the first cookie should get it as why would it be fair for the last person to refer them and not the first who was responsible for reffering them to us? We give the commission to our in house tracking system first which is used for ads we run on Google, other web ads, and in house affiliates. '

    'We have had this discussion here and we think the first cookie policy is the only fair way to do it, why would you not reward anyone other then the person who first reffered the customer.

    The December Transaction was reffered by an ad we run on Google Adwords.

    The January Transaction was reffered by an in house affiliate.

    Our in house does 60 day cookies I believe,
    Thanks, Ben '

    So there it is in black and white (blue?). If you make sales for hostgator they will take them away cos one of their non-converting ads tagged the customer upto 60 days ago.

    Comments/suggestions?

    (I know - drop them. But they actually seem to have a good product...)

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador ticketguyz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xor0

    'I believe that is the first cookie should get it as why would it be fair for the last person to refer them and not the first who was responsible for reffering them to us? We give the commission to our in house tracking system first which is used for ads we run on Google, other web ads, and in house affiliates. '

    'We have had this discussion here and we think the first cookie policy is the only fair way to do it, why would you not reward anyone other then the person who first reffered the customer.

    The December Transaction was reffered by an ad we run on Google Adwords.

    The January Transaction was reffered by an in house affiliate.

    Our in house does 60 day cookies I believe,
    Thanks, Ben '

    (I know - drop them. But they actually seem to have a good product...)
    Yes, drop them. What percentage of CJ merchants practice such a policy (answer: a tiny percentage)? It sounds to me like a very easy way for them to circumvent CJ fees but get affiliates to convert to their in-house program (I would almost guarantee that's what is going on here) where they don't have to pay the 30% surcharge on commissions. This is just one more example of the crooked web hosting merchants. Btw, real professional writing (spelling, punctuation, etc.) on the part of Ben... I expect more from the individuals responsible for promoting the company itself, but that's my own thing.

  3. #3
    Member Chocolate_Chicken's Avatar
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    "why would you not reward anyone other then the person who first reffered the customer."

    Because the first referral did not generate the sale?

    "I know - drop them. But they actually seem to have a good product...)"

    Yeah, but if you look around for a few minutes, you can find a dozen or ten thousand or so who can match or beat their offers.

  4. #4
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    Being a new merchant to affiliate marketing, I do not know how other companies calculate it.

    But speaking from a CJ merchant, I have to agree with Chocolate_Chicken. Speaking about our company only, we believe the last site the visitor came from should get the commission. To give an example, we also send out catalogs to our customers as well and one of our customers came through one of our affiliate sites and then bought something and we then tracked that customer backed to one our catalogs. But I still paid that affiliate their commission, since they helped convert the customer. Eventhough internally the catalog got the sale. But I think it is only fair the pay the affiliate since they helped convert the customer eventhough they were not the orignal referrer.

    Just my two cents

  5. #5
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    Hi, Ben at HostGator here, I wanted to clarify a few things as I was mistaken it seems on a few things. I'm the one learning CJ to train our new affiliate manager in a few days and as I'm typically a sales/billing manager my email to "xor0" had a few mistakes. Our full time CJ manager will be taking over on Monday and his name is Jason.

    Clarification,
    1. We do not give it to the first person to refer the client absolutely; it is the first commission to refer the person on the day of the sale.

    2. If our ads get them to our site first and they order on that day would be the other case.

    Sorry for the confusion as I am not fully aware of how the in house system was working and the owner explained it to me and asked me to post here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ticketguyz
    Btw, real professional writing (spelling, punctuation, etc.) on the part of Ben... I expect more from the individuals responsible for promoting the company itself, but that's my own thing.
    I'm very sorry, I spelled one word wrong with an extra f, I was very busy that day and didn't do a quick spell check. I've got three degrees and two minors and assure you its all good in my head despite a few spelling mistakes. Sorry about that , spell checked this one for sure!

    Thanks, Ben

  6. #6
    Newbie xor0's Avatar
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    Thanks for replying and clarifying Ben. The two cases you present amount to the same thing it seems.

    I guess it was just bad luck that the first two sales I got were both refered on the same day by your in house program. What percentage of sales does this happen with?

    To keep things honest don't you think this policy should be clearly stated on your CJ links page? I think even a 1 day first cookie policy will lose you many affiliates. Policies like this encourage generic non-converting ads. All your in house affiliates have to do is get people to click every day with mass appeal irrelevant ads then they can take the sales from the affiliates who get the customer to actually put down the money.

    I (and others) would be interested to see what take Jason has on this issue.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by xor0
    Thanks for replying and clarifying Ben. The two cases you present amount to the same thing it seems.

    I guess it was just bad luck that the first two sales I got were both refered on the same day by your in house program. What percentage of sales does this happen with?

    To keep things honest don't you think this policy should be clearly stated on your CJ links page? I think even a 1 day first cookie policy will lose you many affiliates. Policies like this encourage generic non-converting ads. All your in house affiliates have to do is get people to click every day with mass appeal irrelevant ads then they can take the sales from the affiliates who get the customer to actually put down the money.

    I (and others) would be interested to see what take Jason has on this issue.
    Yep, actually one of those was from an ad we did on Google, we are trying to figure out why that is happening and why they are clicking on our google adwords ads and then an affiliate or what is going on there.

    Yep it should be and that is my fault, I setup CJ as well as having to do my normal job and a ton of other stuff as the affiliate manager hasn't started yet as we need one full time now. I will have him clarify that as he is also planning on doing a lot of work with CJ.

    I am going to have my boss and Jason when he gets here look at this thread and make some decisions. Can you explain here how the last click means that caused them to put down the money versus the first ad that caused them to discover us? I would like to be able to show them this so we can see the argument and reasons.

  8. #8
    Newbie xor0's Avatar
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    Well you guys are in the hosting business, I'm in the conversion business. Not advertising - I don't want to attract people to your (or anyone else's) site. That costs me money. I want people who are going to buy the product to go to your site and buy it. That makes me money.

    In the case of the reversed transaction you mentioned, someone clicked on your google ad, went to your site and didn't buy. If they had thought later 'hey, actually I'm gonna sign up with hostgator' they would have gone back to your site and signed up, or even searched for 'hostgator' to find your site again. But they didn't. They went to a different search engine and searched using other hosting terms. None of my keywords include 'hostgator', nor display URLS, not even in the ad text in half of them. They were looking for hosting from anybody. But then they saw my ad, it seemed a good deal (it is I think), they clicked and signed up.

    You guys have a good product, concentrate on that. Leave selling it to professionals who's job it is to find people who want to buy your product and bring them to you. That's why you started the CJ affiliate program right?

    Hang on I need this now my blood is up...

    Why do companies run affiliate programs then also put out their own low quality ads? I made over 100 sales for another company since the start of the year then *wham* they stick their lousy non-converting ad at #1 blocking me out and payng a fortune. 'Branding' they call it?

    Anyway sorry for the OT rant. What I am trying to say is try not to f*ck over your affiliates, or even make them *feel* f*cked over. What about this - if an inhouse and outhouse (heh) affiliate set a cookie on a converting customer on the same day then split the commission between them? How does that sound? Some kind of compromise.

    Anyway thanks for coming here and dealing with the issue. I'm sure your company will get a lot of brownie points just for that. A lot of good CJ affiliates read these posts.
    Last edited by xor0; January 13th, 2006 at 06:22 PM. Reason: spelling error

  9. #9
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    Hi guys, sorry for the delay in responding, you guys have made some good points that we had not considered previously. We all talked this weekend at a meeting and after outlining your arguments to the owner and Jason (Affiliate Manager) we are changing our cookie policy. CJ also gave us their take on it via phone and I must thank them. The last person who refers the customer will receive the commission now, until we program this to auto check the commissions between CJ and in house they will be checked manually. Since we have Jason full time now this won't take us too long as he can do it all day as they roll in .

    With regards to xor0's comments, you make some great points! Over the next few months we are going to work to make our CJ program easier to use and have a lot more material you can use for marketing. We are working on several keyword lists, what markets we have found to be good to focus on for the different plans, and so on. I understand your point on affiliates being the professionals who know this sphere of marketing but we are professionals as well and our vision is an affiliate program that compliments our marketing and business building efforts. We are looking for partners to work with our company to help us expand. We have several Adwords Professionals who run campaigns on competitive keywords that we are able to compete in with our larger budget and we focus on branding our name as the leader in reseller web hosting, shared web hosting, and quality support. Our goal is not to intrude on affiliates but to partner with them in order to get our product out to markets we never envisioned and don't have access too.

    Basically we brand our name, running ad campaigns on the most competitive keywords (that affiliates cannot is my understanding), provide a great product, and then helping our affiliates bring in customers and make money! We will strive to do this better as it seems we have a lot to learn and I think in the last two weeks Jason and I have added around 15 forums to our bookmarks to read this weekend. Our EPC is currently the highest in the web hosting section and in 3 months when this updates on their site I think you will see that we are going to become the best web hosting affiliate program in CJ.

    Please let me know if you have any comments, suggestions, or if you are looking for a job in Florida .

    I apologize for any grammar/spelling mistakes I might have made.
    Thanks, Ben
    HostGator
    Last edited by bwb; January 18th, 2006 at 05:56 PM. Reason: spelling error of section, sectoin

  10. #10
    ABW Ambassador ticketguyz's Avatar
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    Congrats on seeing the light. By the way, it's "complements", not "compliments". Thought you'd appreciate that since I'm already under your skin with my previous post.

    Oh, and you're not off the hook yet. Your policy of manually correcting the commissions leaves just as much room for funny business. Updating the checkout process should be a priority, and I'm pretty sure there are a number of affiliates on ABW who can explain rather quickly how to implement the automated feature to ensure the last cookie really does win.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ticketguyz
    Congrats on seeing the light. By the way, it's "complements", not "compliments". Thought you'd appreciate that since I'm already under your skin with my previous post.

    Oh, and you're not off the hook yet. Your policy of manually correcting the commissions leaves just as much room for funny business. Updating the checkout process should be a priority, and I'm pretty sure there are a number of affiliates on ABW who can explain rather quickly how to implement the automated feature to ensure the last cookie really does win.
    Sorry for sp, can't edit it it seems, I'm of the group that believes as long as you get your point accross spelling is not as big of a deal.

    What is the problem with the checkout process? We are checking it manually right now which is full proof?

  12. #12
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    I found hostgator through google but haven't signed up yet. Probably will though. My primary host has been letting me down of late.

    You did have a very effective google campaign when I was searching. The only problem when I came to your site was that I couldn't easily find the information on the cost of dedicated ip numbers, but your online live help chat person was very prompt and helpful.

    As far as all the cj crap, don't let it get you or your associates down.

    Hope you maintain your in-house aff program.

    On the first cookie or last cookie issue, I actually think the first cookie system might reduce cookie stuffing by dishonest affs though I don't know. Coupon sites have their own reasons for screaming the last cookie is the only way to go. In a lot of cases we content sites start the sale and the coupon sites close the sale. In doing content sites my bias is obviously different.


    I was using an in-house program with a different company and when they joined cj, tracking virtually stopped for the in-house program. Hope you are careful that doesn't happen with your in-house program.

    Wish you success.

    And Ticketguyz

    Except for teachers, people who put other people down about the way they write are motivated by the same mentality of people who throw any other slur to put people down because of their social backgrounds. Not cool. It may make you feel superior, but you aren't.

  13. #13
    Newbie xor0's Avatar
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    That's great news Ben, I didn't want to switch to promoting your competitors!

    When did the change kick in? I had another commission reversed yesterday with the same 'other' description. Do you want the transaction #?

    I look forward to seeing how your program develops and thanks for being responsive and adaptable. That already puts you miles ahead of the competition.

  14. #14
    Fear and Arrogance jrrl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xor0
    When did the change kick in? I had another commission reversed yesterday with the same 'other' description.
    Yeah, I'm up to four of those so far this month. I hope this policy change can stop this annoying habit. Thanks!

    -John.
    There's a reason army's wear uniforms even though it makes them easier to spot. Sometimes that's what you want. Uniforms suggest organization, power, and numbers. These, in turn, inspire fear. And, as any good operative knows, there is no more effective weapon than fear.

    Hosting Comparison - HostScope - jrrl.com

  15. #15
    ABW Ambassador ticketguyz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwb
    What is the problem with the checkout process? We are checking it manually right now which is full proof?
    Good question. In the end, it's about trusting you no matter how you have the checkout process working. Whether you check click times manually or automatically, you still have just as much room to reverse transactions under the guise that the last click was made through an in-house affiliate. You may want to read all of the other web hosting threads in the CJ forum to get a sense as to why there is a natural amount of skepticism toward you. All of us certainly hope you'll do the right thing.

    I'd encourage Hostgator affiliates seeing reversals to check the click time vs. the event date on each reversal to see if they are very close (less than 10 min apart). The click times can typically be had by downloading the commission detail report from the day when the sale originally took place. It is reasonable to assume that if the click time and event date are close together, the sale was made on the last click, and you'll have more of an argument to make. If they're far apart, you'll just have to hope that things were handled properly.

  16. #16
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    No way should anyone take the time, or waste their traffic, on building out a detailed pre-sell page on HostGator services. Every one of the cheap hosting shoppers will perform the Google commission killer dance ... http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...tor+coupons%22 before hitting the buy button. If your honest Hostgator, you'll report the percentage of all affiliate orders you manually review that have a "coupon affiliate" code attached. Trying to escape the ROI killing coupon trap, by instituting a first in cookie policy, isn't going to cut it, if that incented percentage is high.

    90% of your affiliate sales force attacks at the point of sale, marketing ONLY the deal sweatener, without any regards to the hosting services you offer. If you also allow in BHO parasites you guarantee the actual 10% showcasing your actual low cost, feature rich services, won't earn anything for their extra efforts. Pull the friggin coupons and only offer 1st month free, or free setup deal open to even type-in traffic at cart checkout.

    Eliminate cart abandonment, or the open extra window at the checkout process, and you'll become a sales operation not catering to the cookie cannons.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by onthepond
    You did have a very effective google campaign when I was searching. The only problem when I came to your site was that I couldn't easily find the information on the cost of dedicated ip numbers, but your online live help chat person was very prompt and helpful.
    Thanks! Yep our web page needs work on how to bring that stuff forward a little. IPs are $2.00 per month per IP, Dedicated servers come with 5 but rest is just on a shared IP. We are working on doing a lot more work on design to highlight some of that as its on the page but down a few marks. We are also working on landing pages for our affiliates for different promotions and types of people they are advertising too, say if someone is pushing our cheap unlimited domain shared account it can land them on a great marketing page that outlines that and what a benifit that is.

    On the first cookie or last cookie issue, I actually think the first cookie system might reduce cookie stuffing by dishonest affs though I don't know. Coupon sites have their own reasons for screaming the last cookie is the only way to go. In a lot of cases we content sites start the sale and the coupon sites close the sale. In doing content sites my bias is obviously different.
    Yep I personally agree but it seems like the majority want the last cookie as the last cookie is responsible for selling. CJ seemed to agree.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by xor0
    That's great news Ben, I didn't want to switch to promoting your competitors!

    When did the change kick in? I had another commission reversed yesterday with the same 'other' description. Do you want the transaction #?

    I look forward to seeing how your program develops and thanks for being responsive and adaptable. That already puts you miles ahead of the competition.
    The change kicked in last night right after I posted it , yep shoot me and I can check, only reason it would say other now is if our in house reffered it last after you. Email me at ben@hostgator.com and I'll check and get details. We are also hoping CJ adds a space on reason where we can put the detail soon, they said they were thinking of adding that.

    Thanks!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ticketguyz
    Good question. In the end, it's about trusting you no matter how you have the checkout process working. Whether you check click times manually or automatically, you still have just as much room to reverse transactions under the guise that the last click was made through an in-house affiliate. You may want to read all of the other web hosting threads in the CJ forum to get a sense as to why there is a natural amount of skepticism toward you. All of us certainly hope you'll do the right thing.

    I'd encourage Hostgator affiliates seeing reversals to check the click time vs. the event date on each reversal to see if they are very close (less than 10 min apart). The click times can typically be had by downloading the commission detail report from the day when the sale originally took place. It is reasonable to assume that if the click time and event date are close together, the sale was made on the last click, and you'll have more of an argument to make. If they're far apart, you'll just have to hope that things were handled properly.
    Gotcha, I think we will show that we are a good program to work with and trust worthy. But I will let our actions and performance over the next three months prove that. Espicially when in 3 months we have the highest EPC.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecomcity
    No way should anyone take the time, or waste their traffic, on building out a detailed pre-sell page on HostGator services. Every one of the cheap hosting shoppers will perform the Google commission killer dance ... http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...tor+coupons%22 before hitting the buy button. If your honest Hostgator, you'll report the percentage of all affiliate orders you manually review that have a "coupon affiliate" code attached. Trying to escape the ROI killing coupon trap, by instituting a first in cookie policy, isn't going to cut it, if that incented percentage is high.

    90% of your affiliate sales force attacks at the point of sale, marketing ONLY the deal sweatener, without any regards to the hosting services you offer. If you also allow in BHO parasites you guarantee the actual 10% showcasing your actual low cost, feature rich services, won't earn anything for their extra efforts. Pull the friggin coupons and only offer 1st month free, or free setup deal open to even type-in traffic at cart checkout.

    Eliminate cart abandonment, or the open extra window at the checkout process, and you'll become a sales operation not catering to the cookie cannons.
    Everyone of the other people in our program and here seems to want last cookie and we switched to that as you are the first besides me to want first cookie. Sorry

    We had to cut free month coupons or free months because of high levels of fraud btw.

  21. #21
    Newbie xor0's Avatar
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    Quick question: I assume you take orders through the 800 #, any way to credit affiliates for those? Some sites list a 'promo code' (affiliate PID) under the phone number and ask for it with the order.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by xor0
    Quick question: I assume you take orders through the 800 #, any way to credit affiliates for those? Some sites list a 'promo code' (affiliate PID) under the phone number and ask for it with the order.
    We actually take no orders over the phone so not needed.

  23. #23
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    Quick question, would it be helpfull to receive the IPs of the customers who ordered for you for tracking purposes? Or not worth it?

  24. #24
    Newbie HomeBizWiz's Avatar
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    Hello Ben,

    While we're on the subject of commissions... not quite in the same way, but HostGator commissions nonetheless...

    I recently joined HostGator and then signed up a friend on a link (provided to me by HostGator in a welcome email advising me of my affiliate details, etc. etc).

    Now I find CJ knows nothing of the sale, my account is not credited with the commission, and I am wondering why? Also would like to know what to do to rectify this issue and get paid my commissions. As no clicks were involved, that part is irrelevant... my friend ordered from my actual computer using the affiliate link button provided. Should have been an instant and indisputable thing.

    I am still very new to this whole web marketing scenario, ESPECIALLY through a third party, which complicates things in my tiny newbie brain... still getting your links uploaded to my web pages and so on, but did not want to miss a sale while I'm getting my education...

    BTW I have found this a difficult arena to find my way around, there is not enough information at the start up level, all the instructions and so on assume a certain level of proficiency... this is a problem for me getting information from both HostGator and CJ. I am learning fast, so this will soon no longer be an issue, but right now, it is!

    Your (HG and/or CJ) help with this, along with my commission cheque, would be very much appreciated...

    Thanks,
    Karen

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeBizWiz
    Hello Ben,

    While we're on the subject of commissions... not quite in the same way, but HostGator commissions nonetheless...

    I recently joined HostGator and then signed up a friend on a link (provided to me by HostGator in a welcome email advising me of my affiliate details, etc. etc).

    Now I find CJ knows nothing of the sale, my account is not credited with the commission, and I am wondering why? Also would like to know what to do to rectify this issue and get paid my commissions. As no clicks were involved, that part is irrelevant... my friend ordered from my actual computer using the affiliate link button provided. Should have been an instant and indisputable thing.

    I am still very new to this whole web marketing scenario, ESPECIALLY through a third party, which complicates things in my tiny newbie brain... still getting your links uploaded to my web pages and so on, but did not want to miss a sale while I'm getting my education...

    BTW I have found this a difficult arena to find my way around, there is not enough information at the start up level, all the instructions and so on assume a certain level of proficiency... this is a problem for me getting information from both HostGator and CJ. I am learning fast, so this will soon no longer be an issue, but right now, it is!

    Your (HG and/or CJ) help with this, along with my commission cheque, would be very much appreciated...

    Thanks,
    Karen
    Email me at Ben@hostgator.com their domain name on the order and I can check, but the only reason that it wouldn't track is if you had the link wrong or if you computer has cookies blocked or something along those lines. I can check if a commission was given here but if it wasn't you will need to double check your links and check what software they have running.

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