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  1. #1
    Affiliate Marketer Rogi's Avatar
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    Foolish Investment... paid off well.
    Well, just thought i'd share this with you all....

    I had a nice sum of money to fool around with after my last checks and decided to put it into something that i'd normally consider 'a stupid move'.

    Anyway, I 'invested' 1k into this (what appears to be a pyramid type / paid to surf thing) which pays out 12% for 12 days. After 12 days I got paid $1440 (minus payment fees etc).

    Now, I'm not condoning this sort of thing, nor do I like it, but hey, I made $440 profit in 12 days, for doing so just thought I'd share it.

    The company is REMOVED' and well, i'm gonna put my 440 profit back into it and play with it until this company eventually colapses (and it will, no doubt).

    Just sharing, not recommending.
    Last edited by Haiko de Poel, Jr.; January 29th, 2006 at 02:29 AM.

  2. #2
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Good on you Rogi, but don't even mention the name.

    ABW does not support illegal pyramid schemes in any way shape nor form (name mention - thus the edit).
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  3. #3
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    BTW as a joke, a truly foolish investment would be the buy.com IPO --- but the results wouldn't be funny
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  4. #4
    ABW Ambassador JJJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    BTW as a joke, a truly foolish investment would be the buy.com IPO --- but the results wouldn't be funny
    Too true... "At a P/S ratio of 0.48, Buy.com sure does look cheap. Compare it to the 1.0 P/S sported by competitor Overstock or to Amazon.com's 2.6, and let's not forget eBay's 15.4.

    But looks can be deceiving. Before doing what the company's name urges, this Fool would advise that you first take a good hard look at the S-1 filing. Note the less-than-spectacular revenue growth (15% barely gets a yawn on the Internet). Note how the spiffed-up income statement shows a declining net loss year to date, in relation to the first nine months of last year. And then note how that decline is belied by the 130% increase in the firm's negative free cash flow over the same period."

  5. #5
    Affiliate Marketer Rogi's Avatar
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    Sorry about the name mention. It's Illegal? ah crap. why don't they state these things on their bloody website.

  6. #6
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Yep, the S1 says much - as in why the "hottie" AM was pimped so much and why they had to change networks, doesn't mean that they are true in any way, or can convert tho --- actually the S1 would make me run away

    Sad that a corp had to pimp a girl to push a program, says alot about them and their impetus, and structure ... or is that just me?
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  7. #7
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogi
    Sorry about the name mention.
    NP

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogi
    It's Illegal?
    In the US, yes these things are illegal, even promoting them, in any way.

    Once again, NP Rogi.
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  8. #8
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    "Pyramid" schemes have legal and illegal variants, since different people can mean different things by the term (and because laws vary by locality).

    Illegal ones basically follow a certain pattern, which seems to match your testimonial:

    Anyway, I 'invested' 1k into this (what appears to be a pyramid type / paid to surf thing) which pays out 12% for 12 days. After 12 days I got paid $1440 (minus payment fees etc).
    With figures like that, it's *extremely* likely to be a Ponzi Scheme (illegal in many countries).

    Quick rule of thumb is, if you end up with some wowzer return like that (or are promised one)...BE SUSPICIOUS!
    After gaining your trust with a few positive "gains," chances are you'll finally invest some seriously big chunk of dough (some have lost decades worth of savings on these) into a Ponzi scheme--only to find the mutha "investment expert" disappearing with the cash one night--like some bad merchant who absconds with the last check. Only worse, since you would have paid a lot in...

    Basics of the Ponzi Scheme:
    Your "great return" would have come from other people's investments. The Ponzi Scheme depends on a constant influx of new suckers, whose investments go to 1) The founder of the Scheme, and 2) the not-as-new suckers (to cover the "great returns"). Problem is, the money is NOT coming from whereever they say--there is no sustainable source of income going on. It's all smoke and mirrors...

    Eventually they can't get enough newbs to cover the returns expected by the older-term investors. Then it crashes.

    What's the game/why set it up? Easy...the founder of the Scheme is hoping to catch that "perfect moment..." the moment when tons of cash is flowing in, fuelled by those referred by people who saw great initial returns (like YOU did. The natural human reaction is to tell everyone you know...). Then, once it's at peak, the scam-starter intends to grab all the dough and disappear!!

    Usually greed gets 'em, though, and they hold off too long (hoping for the pot to get even bigger)...

    From the SEC site (Securities and Exchange Commission, US). I bolded the more important parts:

    Ponzi schemes are a type of illegal pyramid scheme named for Charles Ponzi, who duped thousands of New England residents into investing in a postage stamp speculation scheme back in the 1920s. Ponzi thought he could take advantage of differences between U.S. and foreign currencies used to buy and sell international mail coupons. Ponzi told investors that he could provide a 40% return in just 90 days (There's the ultra-high "return" angle... [Added by me]) compared with 5% for bank savings accounts. Ponzi was deluged with funds from investors, taking in $1 million during one three-hour period—and this was 1921! Though a few early investors were paid off to make the scheme look legitimate, an investigation found that Ponzi had only purchased about $30 worth of the international mail coupons.

    Decades later, the Ponzi scheme continues to work on the "rob-Peter-to-pay-Paul" principle, as money from new investors is used to pay off earlier investors until the whole scheme collapses. For more information, please read pyramid schemes in our Fast Answers databank. ~ http://www.sec.gov/answers/ponzi.htm
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  9. #9
    What's the word? Rhia7's Avatar
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    Leader, your Ponzi knowledge is awesome

  10. #10
    Ad Network Rep ToddCrawford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    Yep, the S1 says much - as in why the "hottie" AM was pimped so much and why they had to change networks, doesn't mean that they are true in any way, or can convert tho --- actually the S1 would make me run away

    Sad that a corp had to pimp a girl to push a program, says alot about them and their impetus, and structure ... or is that just me?
    Wow Haiko, pretty low blow. I know the person you are referring to and compared to many other program managers, she is one of the most professional and hard working people I have ever met. She is 100% dedicated to the company, affiliate program and her publishers. Since migrating the program, it has done extremely well and most certainly "converts".

    It is disappointing to see these kinds of comments when you have no real information to base them on. These kinds of comments harm individuals, our industry and certainly reflect badly on these message boards as a place to discuss affiliate marketing. Personal attacks or negative comments like you made should have no place on these boards.
    Todd Crawford
    Co-Founder, Impact Radius

    Give me a minute before I post again

  11. #11
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Low Blow? It's the bloody truth

    After raising $90 million from VC firm Softbank Capital Partners, it went public in 2000 on a business model that consisted of selling retail products at a loss and trying to make up the difference on advertising. It was insane, we said. It'll never work, we said. Then we watched its market value rise above $3 billion.
    A year later, Buy.com's stock price fell to pennies, and the company was de-listed from the Nasdaq. In November 2001, the company's founder, Scott Blum, took Buy.com private for 17 cents a share. You may remember Blum from his previous venture, storage systems maker Pinnacle Micro. In 1997, he consented (without admitting or denying wrongdoing, as they say) to a cease and desist order from the Securities and Exchange Commission, which charged that Pinnacle Micro had improperly recognized revenue.

    When I looked at the prospectus for the new Buy.com, I so wanted a glorious comeback, a profitable phoenix from the ashes. Here's what I found: a net loss of $15 million on revenues of $291 million last year; declining gross margins of 10.2%; 97% of revenues from sales of computers and consumer electronics (that would explain the declining gross margins); $398,000 of cash on the balance sheet; an accumulated deficit of $409.6 million; negative stockholders' equity of $29.5 million; and $22.7 million in outstanding loans owed to Blum, who has been financing the company out of his pocket. source
    It is disappointing to see these kinds of comments when you have no real information to base them on.
    Yeah, your right the S1's filled with the SEC isn't real information .... sorry.

    But on the lighter side, buy.com isn't a complete financial fudgeup -- at least they spent some of that $398K that they have 'left' on CJ fees and ads that show happy people with checks, not the balance sheet
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  12. #12
    Ad Network Rep ToddCrawford's Avatar
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    Haiko,

    I am talking about your comments about their affiliate program manager, not their S-1 filing. Re-read your comments (and mine). Here is one of your hypocritical posts to also reference - http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=69578
    Todd Crawford
    Co-Founder, Impact Radius

    Give me a minute before I post again

  13. #13
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I said and implied that they used her not that she (herself) did anything wrong herself besides some unanswered posts after she claimed the program was "clean". Oh and yes I do have experience with her -- I called quite a few times to her and the CLO asking why they redirected affiliate product links to non commissionable YUB sign up pages.

    As for Diddy, maybe you inspired me, LOL

    ... the guy specifically attacks Ron and I should let it go?
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

  14. #14
    ABW Ambassador Ron Bechdolt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddCrawford
    Haiko,

    I am talking about your comments about their affiliate program manager, not their S-1 filing. Re-read your comments (and mine). Here is one of your hypocritical posts to also reference - http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=69578
    Gee, Todd, I was just going to post a "Welcome back, where have you been" post when you go and post this.

    I think you are dealing with apples and oranges here, Todd.

    But welcome back, anyway.
    Ron Bechdolt | Affiliate Program Management Consultant
    7 Days A Week Marketing

  15. #15
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    We interrupt this forum fire to bring you a response to a post that I'd missed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhia7
    Leader, your Ponzi knowledge is awesome
    Thanks.

    I read about these in the WSJ, when one gets big enough for them to report on it (there hasn't been one in a while, but for a time there seemed to be a spate of them)...
    Ponzi schemes fascinate me, probably because of how the perps always seem to end up frantically trying to escape in the dead of night, only to be caught by the FBI at some airport, holding nothing but a plane ticket and a suitcase with their clothes... (This is usually after the money stopped coming in, and the mansions and Ferraris have been repossessed [the money stopping is also what tips off the investors--who, in turn, call in the FBI and/or SEC])

    Out of all the scams I've read of, the Ponzi Scheme seems to be the one most likely to result in movie-like high-stakes events, followed by escape-attempt endings fit for Hollywood. It's very suspenseful to read reports on these during the phase where the feds are chasing the perps, since there's a high chance of there being a report of catching the guy 5 minutes before he could board the plane to [some no-extradition-treaty country]...

    I've also read enough about them to know that reading, is as close as I want to get to 'em. The chance of them crashing looks to be 100%.

    [I now return you to the current thread programming]
    Last edited by Leader; February 10th, 2006 at 03:38 PM.
    There is no knowledge that is not power. ~Hemingway

  16. #16
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
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    Todd: Looks to me like the majority of the negative energy Haiko was directing in that post was directed at the Pimper, not the Pimp-ee. She didn't come off smelling like a rose, but it didn't look like a personal attack to me.

    Unflattering? Potentially. But not an attack.
    Kevin Webster
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  17. #17
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    I think a good example of a legal Ponzi Scheme is Social Security.

    Yeah, Leader rocks. Course, now she may say I am wrong about...........

    And glad to see Haiko and Todd having words. Doesn't quite rank UFC material but cool. :-)

  18. #18
    Ad Network Rep ToddCrawford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haiko de Poel, Jr.
    I said and implied that they used her not that she (herself) did anything wrong herself besides some unanswered posts after she claimed the program was "clean". Oh and yes I do have experience with her -- I called quite a few times to her and the CLO asking why they redirected affiliate product links to non commissionable YUB sign up pages.

    As for Diddy, maybe you inspired me, LOL

    ... the guy specifically attacks Ron and I should let it go?
    Your comments were hurtful - if you worded the same things about me, I would have taken offense. I am not defending M Diddy - I am just pointing out that you ask him to act one way when you are acting anoother way.
    Todd Crawford
    Co-Founder, Impact Radius

    Give me a minute before I post again

  19. #19
    Ad Network Rep ToddCrawford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noth
    Todd: Looks to me like the majority of the negative energy Haiko was directing in that post was directed at the Pimper, not the Pimp-ee. She didn't come off smelling like a rose, but it didn't look like a personal attack to me.

    Unflattering? Potentially. But not an attack.
    I am sure that the program manager would beg to differ and therein lies the issue. People just need to think a little more before they post. It does no good to have these types of comments on these boards and is the primary reason many in our industry shun these boards or do not take them seriously.
    Todd Crawford
    Co-Founder, Impact Radius

    Give me a minute before I post again

  20. #20
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I sincerely apologize to Melissa, it was not my intention to hurt her, only to elaborate at a what a foolish investment the buy.com IPO would be (as it was announced on the same day as the thread was originated).
    Continued Success,

    Haiko
    The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

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