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  1. #1
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    The following is a public response from Whenu.com to recent postings at
    various affiliate forums and email lists.


    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

    WhenU.com is proud of its strong and long-lasting relationships with
    merchant partners. We have been an extraordinarily effective
    traffic-generating and conversion mechanism for our partners, and are
    dismayed that some of our partners are being "blacklisted" by those who
    would misunderstand and misrepresent our business model.

    WhenU.com is a contextual-marketing company that distributes contextual POS
    software. The company name derives from the idea that "when you shop",
    "when you travel", etc., WhenU is there as a helpful guide with a relevant
    coupon, offer or information. Our SaveNow! software has a proven ability to
    increase users' propensity to transact online, through contextually-targeted
    information and offers. We offer valuable coupons and relevant information
    to users based on their online activities, converting them from browsers to
    buyers.

    The downloadable software business model has been pursued by many in the
    affiliate industry, including Dash.com, Ebates and several others.
    Client-side software is not a new business model - it has been around on the
    internet for years. Our software is certainly not designed to "steal"
    affiliate commissions or redirect affiliate links - these claims are
    patently false. Most of the traffic that passes through our software is
    unaffected in any way, and our approach is far more conservative than
    others. Our software is designed such that only a user who actually CLICKS
    on one of our coupons and transacts results in a commission for WhenU. And
    our coupons and other POS offers are frequency-capped and unpredictable.

    The vast majority of the traffic that we bring to our key merchants is from
    elsewhere on the web - the same way any affiliate does. Users are shown
    offers based on their online browsing, terms used at search engines and
    content of the pages they are viewing. A user that accepts our license
    agreement and puts the software on the desktop gives us explicit permission
    to show such offers.

    The claim that "users can't uninstall" or "do not know where the ads are
    coming from" is belied by the facts. Every SaveNow! Coupon is formatted and
    branded the same way - with a ? that provides the user with more information
    and a link to our site, which has clear information about how to uninstall.
    About half of our users do uninstall, and the uninstall is clean and easy.

    WhenU.com is proud of its strong relationships with many of the web's
    prominent merchants. We thank our merchant partners for standing by us. We
    ask those who have not worked closely with us to hear the facts and contact
    us before capitulating to the allegations and half-truths that have appeared
    in the affiliate forums.

    We have been generating strong sales and transactions for our merchant
    partners for over a year. At a time when online retailers are struggling to
    generate sales, we have been extremely effective at converting users from
    browsers to buyers. Any merchant with a long history of working with us can
    attest to our standards, our willingness to work closely with merchants, our
    strong desire to make merchants and consumers happy - and our proven ability
    to generate dramatic increases in transactions and sales at our merchant
    partner sites.

    We are dismayed that some of our partners are being "blacklisted" by those
    who misunderstand and misrepresent our business model. We are disturbed by
    the interference with our customer relationships, and are investigating
    legal options to address the organizers and participants in the blacklist.

    Due to the nature of the discourse to date in the affiliate forums, we do
    not plan to respond further within the forums. We ask all merchants and
    other parties genuinely interested in learning more about Whenu.com to
    contact us directly at inquiries@w..., where we will be happy to
    address questions and concerns via email and phone.

    Sincerely,

    Avi Naider
    Chief Executive Officer
    WhenU.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

  2. #2
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    What a crock of HOG WASH!!!

    I'm surprised He didn't add the:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Importantly, WhenUShop is unaffiliated with any retailer or portal.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Which would be hard considering He already said they get commissions :mad:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Our software is certainly not designed to "steal"
    affiliate commissions or redirect affiliate links - these claims are
    patently false.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I guess the are just "barrowing" them

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Our software is designed such that only a user who actually CLICKS
    on one of our coupons and transacts results in a commission for WhenU. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    On your site ... where we don't belong

    Spare me from this idiots babbel :rolleyes:

    Dave

    [ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: dhelle ]

  3. #3
    ABW Ambassador Packy's Avatar
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    Well from what I see in his letter is that the merchants must be responding to this. <IMG src=http://www.abestweb.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif>

  4. #4
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    Nice one Haiko. The little so-an-so is on the run.

    If he'd taken legal advice he would never have written that either. There are too many lies in it.

    I wonder if thats his real name ? :/

    One of the scumware vendors needs making a real example of. This one looks vulnerable.

    f

    [ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: francis ]

  5. #5
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Merchants are responding! BIG TIME!

    Here is an excerpt from a merchant's mail:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I applaud the idea of putting together a list of the merchants who are using scumware advertising, but I hope you are attempting to distinguish between the perpetrators and the victims. Just because an ad for [competitor] appears on the [merchant] site does not mean that [merchant]is in "cahoots" with what is going on. Quite the opposite, we are being targeted by [competitor] against our wishes. We are, in fact, looking into available legal actions against them as well as the scumware software companies themselves to see if we can stop what it going on.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    We can see that even the merchants are victims!

    This is a HUGE company they will do something!

    Haiko

  6. #6
    ABW Ambassador Packy's Avatar
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    Haiko, I agree that some of the merchants must be having traffic taken from them also. It is the busy season and I can imagine the amount of emails a lot of merchants are getting right now from customers.

    One idea about the Blacklist. It might make sense to have two sections in the blacklist. One where a merchant has responded to emails sent to them and don't seem to care. Something like Blacklisted and then maybe a link to their negative email response.

    The other part where a merchant has been advised of the problem and hasn't responded yet. Both should be blacklisted of course until action is taken. Just a thought.

  7. #7
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Packy,

    I creating the Black, Grey and White Lists.

    Black will be cos like Avon Shop Online,
    Bare Necessities, Beauty Buys who blatantly support WhenU.

    Grey will be cos that still have traffic being redirected away from their site because of Save Now pop ups like Gevalia

    White will be companies Like LLBean (who did answer) who Never had any affiliation with them, and Tower Records Who dropped them.

    The reason it is taking time to post the "New List" is because I want to make 1000% sure of the "color" classification of the merchant.

    Haiko

  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador Packy's Avatar
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    Haiko, sounds like a good plan. I would definately take your time like you say and make sure it is right. <IMG src=http://www.abestweb.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif>

    I haven't told ya yet but your doing an awesome job with abestweb. Keep up the great work.

  9. #9
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Our software is designed such that only a user who actually CLICKS
    on one of our coupons and transacts results in a commission for WhenU.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It may means:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Our software is designed such that a user ONLY CLICKS
    on one of our coupons and transacts results in a commission for WhenU.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  10. #10
    ABW Adviser Panel Dynamoo's Avatar
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    If they weren't interested in stealing other people's commission, they'd publish code to disable it on certain web pages, wouldn't they. Even Micro$oft did that with Smart Tags!

  11. #11
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Catch these wanks when they start changing their CJ, BeFree and Linkshare ID tag numbers after being rejected the first time. The moment the are put on notice with a merchant to stop using their network generated links ( as in terminated) they will try to sign up under a new name/account. That is an obvious TOS circumvention for legal proceedings.

    The guys like Linkshare and BeFree who roll out the red carpet for them with coupon/rebate/seasonal automated database uploads need to blacklist them as affiliates. None of these guys have products to sell so they have to become parasites on other merchants offers. The merchants supporting them are out to get their competition at the point of sale.

    Ok you sleuths. See if maybe the coders behind this come from the defunct RuSure.com group who jumped over to Exodise/Globix from bankrupt PSInet.

    Registrant:
    R U Sure Ltd (RUSURE-DOM)
    30 Hamasger st.
    Tel Aviv, 67211
    IL

    Domain Name: RUSURE.COM

    Administrative Contact, Billing Contact:
    Belfer, Asaff (AB16890) asaffb@RUSURE.COM
    R U SURE LTD.
    30 Hamasger St.
    Tel Aviv
    67211
    IL
    972-3-6888832 (FAX) 972-3-6887571
    Technical Contact:
    PSINet, Inc. (PSI-NISC) hostinfo@PSI.COM
    PSINet Inc.
    250 Jordan Road
    Troy, NY 12180
    US
    518-283-8860
    Fax- 518-286-2544

    Record last updated on 13-Nov-2001.
    Record expires on 11-Jul-2001.
    Record created on 11-Jul-1998.
    Database last updated on 19-Dec-2001 03:04:00 EST.

    Domain servers in listed order:

    PRI7.DNS.PSI.NET 38.9.135.2
    PRI8.DNS.PSI.NET 38.9.136.2
    PRI9.DNS.PSI.NET 38.9.137.2
    RuSure used the same popup technology from a desktop download to show competitor pricing at time of sale.?????

    [ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: EcomCity.com ]

  12. #12
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Hey you ABW members. Help me out over at Revenews where I'm getting roasted trying to get the word out. They are trolling that place bigtime lauding the networks and scumware schemes for effective advertising practices. Bunch of Ad agency Brokers -affiliate network/merchant consultants etc etc. They seem to hate my typing worse than I do. But I love it when they re-post my mispelled rantings with the corrections. Reminds me when Chevrolet and their Name mispelled on several Ad agency generated banners and images at GM's site. Those got higher hits and customer inquirys than the corrected ones 2 to 1.

  13. #13
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    Savenow is popping up on the Linkshare sign-in screen now - trying to lure advertisers and possibly affiliate-advertisers.

  14. #14
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    They might have agreed to pay the Friday night bar bill for LS staff at their favorite hangout for 6 months to get the Xposure. I see Linkshare still hasn't listened to my suggestion to NOT replace their defunct merchant banners with their huge LS 468x60 banner. This throws off all site designs. Second all dead merchant links lead to a LS signup page that purposely disables the browser "back" button. Merchant use this too like ShopathomeTV to trap visitors on their sites.

  15. #15
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Is this person related to Ralph Naider the famous consumer advocate??? If so spin that off to the National Enquirer. They love old Ralphee on the front page.


    Avi Naider
    Chief Executive Officer
    WhenU.com

  16. #16
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    jimbo2002,

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Savenow is popping up on the Linkshare sign-in screen now - trying to lure advertisers and possibly affiliate-advertisers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    It has been there! It's also CJ, I told Todd but he did not respond :rolleyes:

    Haiko

  17. #17
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    WhenU definitely looks disturbed by this, based on that spin of theirs! Good going everybody!

    Ecom has some good points. Whoever's got that software should make note of the aff codes that show up in their ads so their circumvention attempts can be thwarted! Merchants who kicked them once will probably do it again if they are told of the new ID#s.

    Ecom--if you hard-code the banner size on your page, the Snare banner should HAVE TO display at the size you want, I would think. It'd look all squashed when a 480x60 was jammed into button size, but at least the proportions would be right...

  18. #18
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    Haiko,

    Wow, I just downloaded it this morning. It is amazing.

    For a lot of sites that dropped them as affiliates, Whenu is now putting links to eBates in the popup (instead of directly back to the merchant).

  19. #19
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Jimbo,

    They [WhenU] are pure thieves!

    It is because Messer, Gerace and Sisney allow this parasiteware! I will change this!

    Haiko

  20. #20
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    Hi All!!

    Below is a copy and paste of the public response posted by Avi Naider.
    I am so tweaked by this guy and his twisting of words and facts that I
    decided to try untwist his writings, using my opinions, and post it
    everywhere I can...

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>WhenU.com is proud of its strong and long-lasting relationships
    with merchant partners. We have been an extraordinarily effective
    traffic-generating and conversion mechanism for our partners, and are
    dismayed that some of our partners are being "blacklisted" by those who
    would misunderstand and misrepresent our business model.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    In fact, several of WhenU/SaveNow merchant affiliates have reported
    that WhenU.com/SaveNow has NOT been very effective in generating
    transactions. This can be verified by postings here:
    http://www.abestweb.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi and arrow down to
    *Merchant Fraud*

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>WhenU.com is a contextual-marketing company that distributes
    contextual POS software. The company name derives from the idea that
    "when you shop", "when you travel", etc., WhenU is there as a helpful
    guide with a relevant coupon, offer or information. Our SaveNow!
    software has a proven ability to increase users' propensity to transact
    online, through contextually-targeted information and offers. We offer
    valuable coupons and relevant information to users based on their
    online activities, converting them from browsers to buyers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Yes WhenU.com/SaveNow offers valuable coupons, etc. but the problem is
    that they place these offers in a popup window in the visitors browser,
    at the merchant's website, both on our webpages and after the visitor
    has used one of our links to access the merchant's website. These
    offers are also placed in a popup window in the visitor's browser after
    the visitor has clicked on the merchant's direct website link that the
    visitor found in the result list of search engines.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The downloadable software business model has been pursued by
    many in the affiliate industry, including Dash.com, Ebates and several
    others. Client-side software is not a new business model - it has been
    around on the internet for years.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Having been around for years most definitely does not qualify it as
    acceptable....

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Our software is certainly not designed to "steal" affiliate
    commissions or redirect affiliate links - these claims are patently
    false.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Steal: to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as an
    habitual or regular practice ... STEAL may apply to any surreptitious
    taking of something and differs from....other terms by commonly
    applying to intangibles as well as material things...
    (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary Tenth Edition)

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Most of the traffic that passes through our software is unaffected in
    any way, and our approach is far more conservative than others. Our
    software is designed such that only a user who actually CLICKS on one
    of our coupons and transacts results in a commission for WhenU. And our
    coupons and other POS offers are frequency capped and unpredictable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Without WhenU.com/SaveNow!: my visitor clicks on one of my links to go
    to a merchant's website for a purchase. I have done my *job*, and if
    the visitor purchases I earn a commission.

    With WhenU.com/SaveNow!: my visitor clicks on one of my links to go to
    a merchant's website for a purchase. I have done my *job*, and if the
    visitor purchases I am entitled to a commission. Difference here is
    that when the visitor reaches the site through my link,
    WhenU.com/SaveNow! pops up a window offering the visitor the same offer
    or an offer not available to regular affiliates like myself. Any
    consumer (including myself) would automatically think that to get the
    special offer shown in the popup window, you have to click on the pop
    up window. That is deception, by both WhenU.com/SaveNow! in that it is
    taking advantage of a consumer's lack of knowledge, and leads them to
    believe that they must click on the pop up window to obtain the same
    offer that they have just clicked through my site to obtain. Should
    the situation be that the offer is better (and many times unavailable
    to *regular* affiliates like me), then I view that as fraud by the
    merchant, as the merchant did not make the playing field fair amongst
    all affiliates (by giving WhenU.com/SaveNow! an unfair advantage), and
    in so doing misrepresented the affiliate program(s).

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The vast majority of the traffic that we bring to our key
    merchants is from elsewhere on the web - the same way any affiliate
    does.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Elsewhere on the web: where on the web? From my site, from another
    affiliate's site, from another affiliate's email link, from a search
    engine, where? (Where else is there but from my site, from another
    affiliate's site, from an affiliate's link in an email, or from a
    search engine?)

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Users are shown offers based on their online browsing, terms
    used at search engines and content of the pages they are
    viewing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This paragraph answers my question above about where... Online
    browsing and content of webpages they are viewing: that would
    communicate to any webpage online including mine and anyone else's, not
    just WhenU.com/SaveNow! webpages. Terms used at search engines: that
    would include the paid listings that merchants and we affiliates have
    purchased. What good is a paid listing if WhenU.com/SaveNow! is going
    to throw up a popup once the visitor clicks on the paid listing and
    arrives at the merchant's website (and incurs a charge for the entity
    who purchased the paid listing). I pay for the listing but
    WhenU.com/SaveNow! collects the commission on the sale that I would
    have collected on if WhenU.com/SaveNow! had not been there.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A user that accepts our license agreement and puts the software on the
    desktop gives us explicit permission to show such offers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm sorry but this is a very weak argument. It is my firm belief that
    most consumers, knowing and more importantly UNDERSTANDING how
    WhenU.com/SaveNow! operates, would prefer to not have any association
    with WhenU.com/SaveNow!.

    Even with all fairness issues aside, if I can offer the consumer the same
    discount as WhenU.com/SaveNow! offers, then why would the consumer want
    to continue to pay the monthly fee to continue to use
    WhenU.com/SaveNow!?

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The claim that "users can't uninstall" or "do not know where the ads
    are coming from" is belied by the facts. Every SaveNow! Coupon is
    formatted and branded the same way - with a ? that provides the user
    with more information and a link to our site, which has clear
    information about how to uninstall. About half of our users do
    uninstall, and the uninstall is clean and easy.

    WhenU.com is proud of its strong relationships with many of the web's
    prominent merchants. We thank our merchant partners for standing by us.
    We ask those who have not worked closely with us to hear the facts and
    contact us before capitulating to the allegations and half-truths that
    have appeared in the affiliate forums.

    We have been generating strong sales and transactions for our merchant
    partners for over a year. At a time when online retailers are
    struggling to generate sales, we have been extremely effective at
    converting users from browsers to buyers. Any merchant with a long
    history of working with us can attest to our standards, our willingness
    to work closely with merchants, our strong desire to make merchants and
    consumers happy - and our proven ability to generate dramatic increases
    in transactions and sales at our merchant partner sites.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    When a visitor clicks on one of my links to visit the merchant's site,
    that counts as a click through.

    If that visitor who clicked through purchases from the merchant, then I
    have a 100% purchase to click through ratio.

    If that visitor who clicked through does not purchase from the
    merchant, then I have a 0% purchase to click through ratio.

    If that visitor who clicked through then clicks on a WhenU.com/SaveNow!
    popup before making a purchase, then I have a 0% purchase to click
    through ratio, while WhenU.com/SaveNow! has just obtained a 100%
    purchase to click through ratio. At this rate, WhenU.com/SaveNow will
    always have roughly double the purchase to click through ratio that I
    have because the purchaser used my link to get to the merchants site,
    which generates a click through in reports (but no sale when the
    visitor clicks on the WhenU.com/SaveNow! popup window). There is a
    much better than 50/50 chance that the purchaser will click on the
    WhenU.com/SaveNow! popup window before making his/her purchase,
    therefore I have a much lower purchase to click through ratio and
    WhenU.com/SaveNow! has a much higher ratio. It is very easy for
    WhenU.com/SaveNow! to appear to be "extremely effective at converting
    users from browsers to buyers" and be able to "generate dramatic
    increases in transactions and sales at (their) merchant partner sites"
    with this approach.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We are dismayed that some of our partners are being "blacklisted" by
    those who misunderstand and misrepresent our business model. We are
    disturbed by the interference with our customer relationships, and are
    investigating legal options to address the organizers and participants
    in the blacklist.

    Due to the nature of the discourse to date in the affiliate forums, we
    do not plan to respond further within the forums. We ask all merchants
    and other parties genuinely interested in learning more about Whenu.com
    to contact us directly at inquiries@w..., where we will be happy to
    address questions and concerns via email and phone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    As long as WhenU.com/SaveNow! continues to present their package in the
    manner that they do, without informing the merchant about how their
    program(s) work, then affiliates world wide will need to take it upon
    themselves to educate both merchants and consumers alike.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sincerely,

    Avi Naider Chief Executive Officer WhenU.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No comment on his sincerity...

    Diane Dennis

  21. #21
    ABW Ambassador mousejockey's Avatar
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    Could someone enlighten me..re:whenU

    I was very involved in the fight against topsurf and other scumware until Sept 11th,
    ...loss in the family and other stuff, so I just put my head down and got on with work.

    Is it similar to ezula and topsurf?
    When Haiko posted to screenshot, I didn't know what I was looking for, is it contextual advertising or is it a browser plugin?
    So if any one has a minute,could you enlighten me [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

  22. #22
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    MJ,

    WhenU is a contextual based browser enhancement ... it contains a left side bar for surfing and pop ups (Save Now). The screen shot I posted was a Save Now Pop up that showed when I went to Alexbet's site and many other sites ... even merchants get the pop up even if they NEVER signed up with them (ie LL BEAN, Red Envelope etc [the white list]). The browser side bar is a thingie that make it look like you can save when you go to the listed merchants which may or may not be merchants, but once you go to their site you'll get a redirect to either their affiliate link (to STEAL your commission) or a pop up to another site like ebates etc.

    Haiko

  23. #23
    Content $ Queen Ebudae's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>


    Below is a copy and paste of the public response posted by Avi Naider of WhenU:

    We are disturbed by the interference with our customer relationships, and are investigating legal options to address the organizers and participants in the blacklist.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So, you are going to take legal action against a "participant" in the blacklist???

    So basically you want to take legal action against any affiliate who is concerned about being scammed? If I participate in this forum or in dropping a merchant or contacting a merchant with my concerns, you are going to take legal action????

    You want to deny my right to FREE SPEECH????

    Excuse me, I have the right to say anything I want -- as long as it is the truth. I have the right to talk any place I want, any time I want. I have the right to contact any merchant and drop any merchant any time I want.

    Screw U, When U

    You don't tell me what I can and cannot do. And if you think you have the legal right to do so -- go for it baby, BRING IT ON!!!

    Vicki [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

  24. #24
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    21,609
    Vicki,

    There is only one place that has created a "Black List" and that is ABW .... he is refering to abestweb and sueing me.

    Haiko

  25. #25
    Content $ Queen Ebudae's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,823
    Hi Haiko, I know he was referring to ABW but by adding the broad term "participant" they are, it seems to me, trying to scare anyone from talking.

    lol, I just don't shut up that easily.

    ((hugs)) my best to ABW and you too!!

    Vicki [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

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