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  1. #1
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Angry What's up with Bonsai Boys of NY
    Decided this merchant at CJ needed to be tested on SAS as I send very targeted traffic to them from my Bonsai page. Added the " make a page displays and some SAS links on high traffic pages specific to natural SERP terms for buying and caring for bonsai trees.

    3800 clicks to BBNY from CJ links since Jan 1st. Now 674 click to specific landing pages from SAS links in March & April. Total result is ZERO SALES.

    I click the SAS merchant summary link and see...
    Bonsai Boy of New York www.bonsaiboy.com
    Home & Garden
    ID: 962 Active on: 09/12/2001 20%
    Per Sale

    30 Days
    7 Day ($1.52) NEGATIVE EPC
    30 $6.78
    7 Day reversals =95.45 % (almost 100% reversal rate)

    7 Day average sale=$53.87 and 30 day average sale= $57.64
    7 Day average commission payout ($2.52) NEGATIVE

    How can a SAS merchant have negative EPC and 96% reversal ratios without getting a deep audit from Brian. They never responded to 2 SAS e-mails I sent them.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador
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    Forgot they were over at SAS but at CJ last year:
    1058 clicks - 18 sales

    7 Day reversals =95.45 % That's pretty crazy

  3. #3
    ABW Ambassador Snib's Avatar
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    I've found their affiliate manager to be very responsive via email. I agree that the conversions are a bit low for BBNY lately. I recently had some nice sales reversed, so that might explain the bad reversal % now. I talked to her about the fewer number of sales and she agrees that it's slowed down. She told me it's most likely due to competition. Just too bad the competition doesn't have affiliate programs in most cases.

    - Scott
    Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.

  4. #4
    15 years and counting
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    If there's a parasite with a CJ cookie for Bonsai Boy popping up on the shopping cart, it could explain the 95.45% reversal at SAS.
    Bonsay Boy is only paying for the last click, the parasite click. The transaction shows up at SAS but is later reversed by Bonsai Boy.

  5. #5
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    How would that affect reversals? The parasite would have last click and get the sale.

  6. #6
    ABW Ambassador thecool's Avatar
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    Instead of looking only at the last 7 days snapshot, look at the trend for each parameter and you will see that the stats you quoted only pertain to the last 7 days. Scary but, not a big deal when viewed over the past 45 days. What matters is how many sales does the 95.45% reversal represent when their 30 day reversal rate is only 16.94%. Even more important is how many of your sales were reversed if any.

    Gene
    TCS

  7. #7
    15 years and counting
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    How would that affect reversals? The parasite would have last click and get the sale.
    Have you seen a merchant paying the same transaction ON TWO networks?
    If an affiliate make a sale on SAS and is "overwritten" by a CJ parasite click, the parasite will claim the commission on CJ, and the commission on SAS will be reversed later. Does it affect reversals? I bet it does.

    "overwritten" is not correct, we'll have two cookies, 1 SAS, 1 CJ, the CJ cookie with the last date/time stamp.

  8. #8
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    What I'm saying is I can have a merchant with a 60 day cookie and visit 5 different affiliate sites within that time frame and buy something from the last one. Those 5 affiliates don't all get credited with the sale and then all get reversed, just the last one gets credit because new cookie replaces old cookie. And if it was the cause it would also show on the 30 day reversal, which it doesn't.

    "Have you seen a merchant paying the same transaction ON TWO networks?"

    How would you see that?

  9. #9
    15 years and counting
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    Those 5 affiliates don't all get credited with the sale and then all get reversed, just the last one gets credit because new cookie replaces old cookie.
    Only if they are on the same network.
    That's why there's a problem with merchants on several networks. Who knows the truth on the last click? Only the merchant, not the networks. "Trusted Third Parties"???

  10. #10
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    "Only if they are on the same network.
    That's why there's a problem with merchants on several networks."

    Explain that one to me.

    Example:

    A merchant can be at CJ and SAS and have a 60 day cookie.
    Someone could come to my site, click a CJ link and cookie is set.
    A few days later they can go to another affiliate site click a CJ link and that one overrides mine. New cookie is set.
    They could have went to another affiliate site and click an SAS link and that one overrides mine. New cookie is set.

    You just read the last cookie regardless of network.

  11. #11
    15 years and counting
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    Only the MERCHANT read the last cookie regardless of network.
    Each Network read their own cookies.
    If a visitor visit your site, click a SAS link and buy a product, a SAS cookie will be set on the visitor computer with your affiliate ID and the commission will show up in your SAS report.
    Now, if during the check out, a CJ parasite cookie is set right after your SAS cookie, your commission will still show up in your SAS report but a commission will show up also in the parasite report at CJ.
    Later the merchant will match all the transactions with the commissions and more likely will see the same sale on each network.
    He can let it go and pay both networks or more likely the SAS commission will be reversed.

    Does it make sense?

    The sale can be made during the life of the cookie, the result will be the same.

  12. #12
    ABW Ambassador thecool's Avatar
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    Bonsai Boy is not on any parasite list that I have checked lately. If cookies are working correctly, the sale should only be posted to the last cookie set as at the point of check out the merchants cart should look at the shoppers PC for the last cookie set for the merchant. The other network should never come into play considering the last cookie set. Correct me if I am wrong.

    Gene
    TCS

  13. #13
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
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    What Zeus says is exactly right, if the merchant's manually going back and checking (when there's two cookies for any single sale).

    It would be far better to program something in to check the cookies to see which is last and only credit the last one. (avoiding reversals by never having any single sale credited to two separate affs).

    This however, would not solve the problem on parasites at one place, popping and taking the sale from an affiliate on the other (or on the same) network.

    In the case of SAS and CJ dualie, where the cart takes either, whether it's programmed detection of which cookie is last or a manual process, it's a nice setup for the parasite because they can ONLY be policed at one location (and CJ does little), but they can steal from both.

    No matter what is happening, a 95% reversal rate means there is at least one big problem somewhere in this mess.

  14. #14
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
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    They do play with a lot of cash back sites...

    greenzap, bounty zoo, little grad, consumer candy (cough, cough), simplerebates, mysimon and many more...

    So promoting them at SAS means, in many cases, that you're doing some fairly good revenue generating for the cheating scum at CJ, so you've got that to be proud of...

    This is from last year about this time, but it's noteworthy that some people use eXact / Bargain Buddy to mess with our boy, Bonsai.
    http://www.benedelman.org/spyware/ex...merchants.html

  15. #15
    ABW Ambassador thecool's Avatar
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    Not withstanding the important dualie situation that you point out, I think that a mountain is being made from a mole hill.
    Quote
    No matter what is happening, a 95% reversal rate means there is at least one big problem somewhere in this mess. Unquote

    The stress placed on the 95% is over looking the reality of long term reversal rate. The thirty day reversal rate in only 16%. To me that is still too high but, to emphasize the 95% over the last seven days is an injustice. Should this 7 day rate extend and become a 30 day or more rate, then there would be cause for major concern.

    I am more concerned about merchants that have dualie programs that are in bed with Upromise, ebates, Whenu and the other major parasites.

    Gene
    TCS

  16. #16
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    Yeah, the 95% is too high but it's not like parasites just appeared in the last week or so. So there's a problem somewhere, don't think it's parasites.

  17. #17
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    The 95% 7 day EPC doesn't mean too much. But, the average level of reversal on SAS is quite anormal and it's not the only information we have.
    I've my own experience of Bonsai Boy. I was one their top affiliates (at their very beginning), and I'm still with them at CJ AND SAS.
    I'm sure others have seen the trend, too. It's not always fair competition.
    It's all depend what we call a parasite. Check some of the cash back sites listed by Donuts and who use eXact Advertising.

  18. #18
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
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    I used to promote the heck out of BBNY. (In fact, my first $100 single sale commission was through them.) I haven't had links up in several months, but whenever I had a question for them, they always replied. In fact, they even un-reversed a dupe sale for me, creditting me $45 or so and reversing the CJ affiliate...

    That was about a year ago. Wonder if they did that because they understood the above?
    Kevin Webster
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    Kayak Fishing
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  19. #19
    15 years and counting
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    Noth - they even un-reversed a dupe sale for me, creditting me $45 or so and reversing the CJ affiliate...
    How do you call that, remorse!

  20. #20
    The "other" left wing davidh's Avatar
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    Adsense is the cure.

    "3800 clicks ........ 674 "

    Let's say just 5% of those folks clicked on your Adsense ads instead (which might happen if you move them to where the eyeballs are; right now you've got them off to the side and below the fold).

    That would be about 220 clicks. It won't pay your mortgage, but it will still be cash in your pocket, which is more than what you were getting before.

  21. #21
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
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    Something like that... yeah
    Kevin Webster
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  22. #22
    Analytics Dude Kevin's Avatar
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    PPC payouts on Bonsai terms were pretty wretched, as I recall...

    Don't ban me Google, I wasn't talking about you...............................
    Kevin Webster
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  23. #23
    The "other" left wing davidh's Avatar
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    "PPC payouts on Bonsai terms were pretty wretched"

    Are they $0.00?

  24. #24
    What's the word? Rhia7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoWires
    Adsense is the cure.

    "3800 clicks ........ 674 "

    Let's say just 5% of those folks clicked on your Adsense ads instead (which might happen if you move them to where the eyeballs are; right now you've got them off to the side and below the fold).

    That would be about 220 clicks. It won't pay your mortgage, but it will still be cash in your pocket, which is more than what you were getting before.
    So you believe the affiliate ad and Adsense combo will bring in the cash one way or another? You don't think that Adsense detracts in any way from the affiliate thrust?

    P.S. I just noticed that this is post "888" -- the number of new beginnings
    ~Rhia7 -- Remember the 7
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  25. #25
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    "You don't think that Adsense detracts in any way from the affiliate thrust?"

    Mike's site doesn't have any affiliate thrust. He's making $0 now. If he had Adsense up, he would be making money.

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