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  1. #1
    ABW Ambassador mousejockey's Avatar
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    These are my thoughts;
    Copying was a form of learning for the old masters.

    Michelanglo copied the works of the early renaissance artists, Raphael copied both Leonardo and Michelango. El Greco copied Michelanglo's 'Pieta' and borrowed from Titian, Van Gogh copied Millet and Delacroix.

    Picasso did 44 copies of Velazquez’s masterpiece ‘Las Meninas’ but couldn't capture the atmosphere like Velazqueez.

    Manet copied Goya's 'Naked Maja' to create 'Olympia' perhaps one of the rare times when copying produced brilliant results.

    Copying and interpreting works from others only rarely produces a masterpiece.
    Why, because the muse behind the work is missing.

    While blatant copying and ripping off is certainly not okay, and needs to be addressed, I think banning is too harsh a justice.

    Our excitable boy Pranav was dealt with by members of the forum for his actions,one very public dressing down, and to his credit, he took it all, and continues to take what we dish out.
    Pranav has gone on to create his own site,generating sales and with guidance and understanding will go on to greater things.

    Perhaps if the moderators had banned him then, who knows what would have happened to him, who knows what trouble he would get into!
    We are here to help and unlock each other's potential, therefore I feel a ban is not the way to achieve a well oiled affiliate marketing machine.

  2. #2
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Well, while I agree it is Haiko's board and his to do with as he pleases, he would have no board at all without the contributions of the membership and therefore our feelings should be given utmost consideration, as I am sure they are.

    Regarding the banned, I think the over all contribution of the member should be considered. What a shame that one night of poor behavior should wipe out all the positive contributions that member made. It especially sad when you think that he was so provoked and the aggrieved party to begin with.

    And, I don't know if any of you remember, but I was warned, myself, to tone it down and had my posts deleted, when someone made disparaging remarks about the US right after 911.

    Anyone can behave badly at some point.

    I do hope that fences can be mended. Should he be readmitted to our circle, it is really my belief that the behavior would not recur and the board would have no further incidents from that member who has admitted wrong and apologized. And, that is, after all, what the real goal is, isn't it?

    If it ever happened again, you can trust there would be no sympathy here.

  3. #3
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    Voting is right...although i was the 1st one to suggest a vote...yep, i'm learning a few things in this situation that it was actually never needed...it depended upon haiko, but if he felt like taking a joint decision by the fellow members then so be it....which obviously didn't happen so lol

    What more to that
    Regards
    TGO

  4. #4
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    The message got duplicated lol
    Hence i edited it...to save bandwidth lol [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    Regards
    TGO

    [ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: TGO ]

  5. #5
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    Personally, I don't think members should be voting on this topic because I believe such a vote undermines the authority of the forum owner and moderators.

  6. #6
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    Thats not where authority is from, I don't think. I think it can be lost more easily than gained that way.

    Incidentally, from what I've seen elsewhere - when someone is banned for reasons that seem slightly inadequate to the casual observer, it seems to me more often than not they weren't banned for something they said - they were banned for something they were about to say.


    I

  7. #7
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Thats not where authority is from, I don't think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I suspect then, we disagree on this one. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

  8. #8
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Mousejockey, none of those famous artists used the equivalent of a Xerox machine to do their copies! In order to make those attempts, they had to form every brushstroke themselves, by hand, therefore at least giving them practice at how to get the paintbrush to do what they wanted it to (even though they never hit the quality of the original!).

    That's a far cry from making a machine duplication of existing material and changing nothing but the signature (or affiliate code)!!! Machine duplication (copy and paste, robots, or other means of modern copying) imparts no practice-effect, and takes zero skill to do it. The thief may be able to run the copy program better than before but that's not going to help him make his own sites!

    There is no comparison between hand-painted artwork and any kind of machine duplication!

  9. #9
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    1) I wonder what Vermeer would think of my Girl with a (new improved) Green Turban?*

    2) Wheres Andy Warhol when you need him?

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


    I

    *It wasn't just rennaissance painters learned that way!

  10. #10
    ABW Ambassador mousejockey's Avatar
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    No, I'm positive they didn't use a Xerox!

    I used 'art' as an example because I view websites, as a work of art utilizing a number of artistic skills.

    I never saw the copied website in question. From what you are saying it was a complete copy and paste, and was not used as a building block to which the individual added their own magic.

    1.In this case I believe the injured party should be the one to deal out fair justice, whether that means legal action, a public reprimand or a request to the board for banning of the individual.

    I don't believe we should be voting on future or past cases as a whole, each case and no doubt there will be more, will be different.


    2.Otherwise, if a call to vote is issued, it should be issued per case with the websites accessible to the board/members who are asked to vote.

    3.Or Haiko and the board of moderators should decide if this is to be part of the Rules and Regulations of the forum,and as members we abide by them or leave gracefully.


    "There is no comparison between hand-painted artwork and any kind of machine duplication"

    I don't know about that,some of these "bots" are getting pretty good [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


    lol! and all Haiko wanted was a simple yes or no [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    [ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: mousejockey ]

  11. #11
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wonder what Vermeer would think of my Girl with a (new improved) Green Turban?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Whatever he would think, his work is looooong out of the jurisdiction of copyright law. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and was not used as a building block to which the individual added their own magic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Derivative works, while being tougher to prove, are still a violation of law.

    I am NOT voting in the poll and I DO recognize that copyright violation is NOT always a clearcut situation and should be treated with EXTREME caution before accusations are made, but I hate seeing a discussion of copyright violation that makes excuses for the violator.

    I live in a world of writers, many of whom have chosen to put their work online -- with full knowledge that that act makes it susceptible to theft. Do you think that knowledge makes it any easier when someone takes that work and claims it as their own? Or takes that work and changes a word here or there and then claims it as their own? They accept the risks, but that doesn't make it less painful when some knucklehead doesn't have the creativity, work-ethic, or self-respect to create their own work.

    Disagreeing with the law is one thing, coddling those who violate it is another.

  12. #12
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    "From what you are saying it was a complete copy and paste~MJ"

    BINGO!!!

    I will also agree with Cedric's statement--"I hate seeing a discussion of copyright violation that makes excuses for the violator!"

    There is no valid excuse, and whether past artists engaged in such behavior before coming up with something of their own does not make it any better.

  13. #13
    ABW Adviser Panel Dynamoo's Avatar
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    I think it's the definition of "copying" that's the problem.

    If I take artwork, controls or copy from your site then that's wrong...

    ...But if I look at your site and say "hey those tables are really nice", or "that layout works well" or "that's a neat way of doing it" and then use it, that's not the same thing. If people like the way I've done something, I'm happy for them to take inspiration from it.

    A greyer area is copying the theme of a site - so if you have a site selling widgets, it would be wrong for me to look at your site and rip off the theme - i.e. if you can make momney from widgets, I'd like a piece of the action, which takes money away from you. This would be using privileged information for personal gain...

    ...but if you say "hey having postcards" or "having ODP data really helped keep the visitors coming back" and then I did the same, again, that's not stealing.

    I think we should all understand that when we come here and talk about or web sites, other people will pay attention, and maybe use that information to help themselves. This is *why* we are here. But if someone takes copyrighted material or damages someone else's livelihood then that is dead wrong.

    But let's be honest, how many times have you peered at someone's HTML to see how it's done and used it yourself? Or looked at a commercial site and copied elements of the look and feel? This kind of borrowing of elements is what made the web grow so quickly - there were no secrets in how you layed something out. Have you ever borrowed someone's CSS because you didn't know how to do it - I have.

    Umm I guess this is just a long winded way of saying that we need to define "copying" very carefully.

  14. #14
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A greyer area is copying the theme of a site - so if you have a site selling widgets, it would be wrong for me to look at your site and rip off the theme - i.e. if you can make momney from widgets, I'd like a piece of the action, which takes money away from you. This would be using privileged information for personal gain...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's not "privileged" information, it's public information and completely fair game. And while it may fall into the realm of sleazy (as does much of capitalistic practice), it's certainly not a copyright violation.

    Blockbuster surveys a town, finds the small local video stores are doing well, builds a mega-store and puts the all the little guys out of business.

    Of course, copying web page product lines from other affiliates also falls into the Stupid Realm given there is no way of knowing if a person is actually making a profit on the products (or which products) they are promoting. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

  15. #15
    ABW Adviser Panel Dynamoo's Avatar
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    The priveleged information part though is knowing the inside track - i.e. "Hey I get 10,000 visitors a day and have just bought a new Aston Martin" is more than the public would know.. I guess you need to be careful in what you say, but sometimes it helps to talk freely.

    Hmmm.

  16. #16
    ABW Adviser Panel Dynamoo's Avatar
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    Hey Pranav be careful I could be taking my inspiration from you!

    Actually, the though occurred to be that the ABestWeb elite forum being discussed could be one where the members have also agreed to nondisclosure agreements so they can actually talk freely about more sensitive commericial aspect of their sites.

  17. #17
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    I'll give you a prime example about ideals.
    I found this site about a year ago and got my site listed on it freesportspicks.com
    At the time it was free to get listed but at the start of football you had to pay a fee or else be a affiliate of clickbank so they could make a commission on sales.Since I first found this site there have been at least 4 more sites made by different people with the same theme and basically the same
    sites posted on them,as far as I know the guy who owns this site has his personal site listed on every one of the other sites like his.At the time I first discovered this site I was thinking what a great ideal he had and wishing I had came up with it,I never even considered doing the same thing because I felt like I would be doing him a disservice.
    Now I'm thinking about doing one similar to his but if I do I will consult with him first and get his okay (time would be my biggest enemy on this thing)By the way I get more traffic from him than I do google and I've got a good ranking with google and I also get good traffic from the other 4 sites like his.
    By the way I not sure what the point of all this is I've said but maybe someone will make some sense of it.

  18. #18
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Pranav, I don't know all the terms you bid on at FindWhat but if you did things like bidding on "shopping" and other general stuff it's no shock that you didn't make any money. Also 25c is way too high to bid for anything!! (After seeing that xeroxed site I checked around, saw some bids you had made...they're probably out of the Google cache now but I do remember a 25c bid on "shopping" was made on some little PPC engine!)

    And yes I do make good money from my sites, even better than before!!

    ~~~~~~~
    Smont, make sure the same guy really doesn't own ALL of those sites...

  19. #19
    ABW Ambassador mousejockey's Avatar
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    I think Dyamoo has come up with a good point in this discourse, for all to agree to a nondisclosure agreement.

    And Pranav, I'm not defending what you did,
    although I am pleased you are turning your life and ideals around, I am just trying to clarify a grey area.

    I had no idea you just did a c & p, and I'm amazed Leader has remained this cool!

    Dynamoo, I agree, "I think it's the definition of "copying" that's the problem"

  20. #20
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think Dyamoo has come up with a good point in this discourse, for all to agree to a nondisclosure agreement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would absolutely refuse to sign... I don't reveal my identity in registration and I won't sign a possibly legally binding document under a false name.

  21. #21
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    On FindWhat, Most of the bids were VERY targeted and on most of the bids, you had advertised too!

    Shows how much I look at my bids once I put them up (almost never). Now you have me wondering if FW has been sending junk traffic for the last few months!

    About how much you make leader -- I told you, I don't doubt what you said and I'm sure you make much more than the $1000 you kept telling us .. But I can't confirm it either.

    $1000/month is old news. It IS a lot more, now! But I no longer give out specific figures since it only caused trouble to do that.

    As for confirming it, oh well--I'm not going to try to prove any more figures to the public, either! I have better things to do with my time than try to convince people!!!

    I'm making sales with the site I made,
    and That's all I want ..


    Good that you're making sales with YOUR OWN site.

    As for the term 'xerox', yes the Xerox Corporation certainly did make its mark in a lot of countries!

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