Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27
  1. #1
    ABW Ambassador
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Nunya, Business
    Posts
    23,684
    For Those Using MSN Adcenter - Matching Options
    Broad match triggers your ad to display if the word or words in your keyword appear in a customer's search query – even if other words are present in what they type.
    Exact match triggers your ad only when the exact word or words in your keyword, in exactly the same order, appear in a customer's query.
    Phrase match triggers your ad when the word or words in your keyword appear, in any order, in a customer's search query.
    I think these work just a little differently than Google.

    most of my keywords are k1, k2, k3, etc. never just 1 keyword.

    So lets say i have a k1 k2 phrase that I want to show up and it doesn't matter the order. It could be k1 k2 or k2 k1 or k2 k1 with some other words as long as the 2 keywords are in the search.

    Which matching option is the one. Phrase right?

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Nunya, Business
    Posts
    23,684
    For Google the phrase match works a little differently:
    Phrase Match - If you enter your keyword in quotation marks, as in "tennis shoes," your ad will appear when a user searches on the phrase tennis shoes, in this order, and possibly with other terms in the query. For example, your ad will appear for the query red tennis shoes but not for shoes for tennis. Phrase matching is more targeted than broad matching, but slightly more flexible than exact matching. To ensure your ads are as targeted as they can be, you may want to include at least two descriptive words in your keyword phrases."

    So for Google Phrase Matching the keywords have to be in the same order and there can be other keywords too.

    For MSN they can be in any order. But it also doesn't say if there can be other keywords too.

  3. #3
    Newbie
    Join Date
    March 22nd, 2006
    Posts
    17
    Sounds like using broad search could be dangerous if you are on a limited budget, no?

  4. #4
    ABW Ambassador mailman's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    mailordering.com
    Posts
    906
    TrustNo1. Do they have an affiliate program similar to adsense?

  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Nunya, Business
    Posts
    23,684
    "Sounds like using broad search could be dangerous if you are on a limited budget, no?"

    Yep, I've always just used Phrase match or Exact match with Google with very targetted keywords.

    "TrustNo1. Do they have an affiliate program similar to adsense?"

    They have this which is like Adwords. In the future they're going to have something like Adsense. Not sure if they're also going to have an affiliate program for it too.

    Right now I would hope they just focus on this and get it right before launching anything else.

  6. #6
    ABW Ambassador
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Nunya, Business
    Posts
    23,684
    Rhia, lol. I hope to one day see you try out all these programs. Actually try out Goldencan, actually try out Adsense, actually try out some pay per click programs. Try out MSN Adcenter so then we can talk about it and make some money.

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Nunya, Business
    Posts
    23,684
    See you would be a natural. Throw some money into the PPC bowl and win some money. It's calling your name:

    https://adcenter.msn.com/

  8. #8
    ABW Veteran Mr. Sal's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Posts
    6,795
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhia7
    TrustNo1,

    I admire your expertise with pay per click programs, but I caution you not to get swept away especially if you are a young teen with a limited budget.

    Make sure you keep to your budget.

    Have fun but don't spend all your money on clicks.
    ~Rhia,

    That's a good advice, but don't let Trust age fool you. He's only 13 yrs old as an affiliate marketer, but he's older than the microchip in in real life.







    ...

  9. #9
    ABW Ambassador
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Nunya, Business
    Posts
    23,684
    I think Monday I'll start this thread over or a mod can split it.

  10. #10
    Comfortably Numb John Powell's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 17th, 2005
    Location
    Bayou Country, LA
    Posts
    3,432
    For MSN they can be in any order. But it also doesn't say if there can be other keywords too.
    Does this help? From adCenter Help:

    Phrase Match
    This specifies a group of words that are a match with someone's search query only if they are all present and in the exact order shown in your keyword list. For example, the keyword "red flower" is a phrase match with query terms "big red flower" and "red flower," but not with "yellow or blue flower" or "flower red."
    In edit it seems to contradict itself:
    Phrase match triggers your ad when the word or words in your keyword appear, in any order, in a customer's search query.


  11. #11
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    In MSN, with phrase match, there can be other words, but the keyword phrase you've specified must be present, consecutive and in order.

    So if you phrase bid "red apples"...

    these would hit:
    red apples
    shiny red apples
    red apples from kentucky
    big red apples that are shiny

    these would not:
    red spots on apples
    apples red
    red delicious apples

    Warning: they are still making frequent changes to algotrithms (as a natural extension of insufficient ad inventory). See their April 12th blog for one example:
    http://blogs.msdn.com/adcenter/

    Trust, if you want hits for k1 k2 and k2 k1 you have several choices. I'd recommend avoiding broad match, you get too much junk and your ctr, position and cost will suffer. Instead, phrase match both variations k1 k2 and k2 k1. Use params versus keyword insertion in your ad if any of the variations don't make linguistic sense.

  12. #12
    Comfortably Numb John Powell's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 17th, 2005
    Location
    Bayou Country, LA
    Posts
    3,432
    I'd recommend avoiding broad match, you get too much junk and your ctr, position and cost will suffer.
    Donuts Would this go for AdWords and Overture also or is your recomendation specific to AdCenter?


  13. #13
    ABW Ambassador
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    West Coast USA
    Posts
    3,043
    Thread cleaned up @ Trust request.

  14. #14
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    It really depends on the situation and the words involved and your roi. But generally, as an affiliate (meaning affiliate margins), you should strive to avoid broad match unless there's absolutely no other good way to do it - or unless your roi is so high that you're reaching for share / volume, not max return % (which is rare for an aff).

    If ad managers could see all the examples that broad matching displays, they'd be horrified. Those that aren't horrified don't understand what the CTR calculation at G and M do as a result of it and how it impacts their costs and positions.

    Here's one example:
    Teva makes a sandal called the "Dozer".
    Search G for "dozer sandals"
    http://www.google.com/search?q=dozer+sandals
    First 2 spots are selling earth moving bulldozers, not sandals!!!!!!!
    The people running ads don't know that "dozer" is also a brand of sandals - they're broad matching the word dozer.
    Dozer can also be someone sleeping, someone's name, and much more.
    Their ad gets shown many times for really stupid reasons.
    And it costs them a LOT of money via low CTR.
    Since nobody looking for sandals clicks on their ad, there's no easy way for them to detect this situation (via logs) and their CTR will be low and they won't even know why.
    Their CPC will be MUCH higher and their ad position lowered as a result.

    G talks about relevant ads, but they allow crappy ad campaigns to run and take these tops spots - which is ridiculous on their part (when thinking of the consumer), however, this behavior makes the bulldozer companies ads MUCH more expensive. Instead of forcing behavior (I mean forcing people to run good ad campaigns or more closely policing broad matching on their own), G has decided to punish them financially. One problem with that approach is the way G tells people. They used to try and get you to read and learn, but guess what... people didn't. Now they turn off your keyword / ad and tell you to pay more if you want it to show. It's working mainly - and you see people here complaining about their words being shut off and some new crazy bid level listed. Now you know what's happening. They're being taught the hard way.

    The answer for the bulldozer folks is the same as it is for us:
    use more specific / lengthy keywords or
    use broad match only with an extensive negative keyword list or
    use phrase matching or better.

    You get more traffic with choice 2 above, but without extensive negs, it's quality will be much poorer.

    Making ads specific (and therefore bold / spec fonted) with Broad Match is always less succesful as well. Phrase match ads, due to the available mechanics at M, will always be vastly superior to any ads with Broad match driving them.

    One problem with M is that they don't yet have global negative keywords. This is why extra care should be taken at M when using Broad match. At M, negative keywords apply at the keyword level (versus order level (campaign level at G)) and the field that holds your negative keywords in M is very limited in size. So it's not possible to have a truly extensive negative keyword list at M right now. Deduction... Broad Match should be avoided there.

    Good news though. Click costs at MSN are still significantly less than G and Y, perhaps 20-40% less, so for now, those not running things well aren't getting slaughtered with poor costs or position. As more advertisers enter (and they're adding at a remarkable rate now), the pain for poor management decisions will go from dull ache to chainsaw limb amputation.

  15. #15
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    Here's another example of broad matching without negs.

    Car's can have a bra. The leather cover on the front end. Check out this search for 'nissan bra':
    http://www.google.com/search?q=nissan+bra

    First ppc spot is barenecessities.com.
    Bahahahhaaa!
    The cost of mistakes like this is monumental!
    Wonder how much they're paying the person managing their ppc campaign.

    The ad in 5th spot is a large, reputable marketing firm who's been hired to run JC Penney's ad campaign. What a joke. It's so lazy to broad match a short word like 'bra'. Wonder how much they pay for the management services... Again, it's not the cost of managing the account that makes me laugh, it's the higher cost per click the advertisier pays for being stupid, lazy, ignorant, egotistic, uninformed or whatever the case may be. Broad matching w/o extensive negs is not a management technique - it's a spending technique.

  16. #16
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    Here I gave Dodge two chances to neg me out... 'plastic' and 'scale'... they did neither...

    'plastic dodge viper scale model'
    http://www.google.com/search?q=plast...er+scale+model
    Last edited by Donuts; May 15th, 2006 at 10:31 AM.

  17. #17
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    You'd think OverStock.com ppc team would use "return" as a neg... nope.

    'return radio to overstock'
    http://www.google.com/search?q=retur...o+to+overstock
    Last edited by Donuts; May 15th, 2006 at 10:32 AM.

  18. #18
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    The foodnetwork is broad matching 'newsletter sign up' without any negs...

    'horse dung newsletter sign up'
    http://www.google.com/search?q=horse...letter+sign+up

    'bird flu newsletter sign up'
    http://www.google.com/search?q=bird+...letter+sign+up

    'newsletter sign up so i can sue'
    http://www.google.com/search?q=newsl...p+so+i+can+sue

    'newsletter sign up tactics'
    http://www.google.com/search?q=newsl...ign+up+tactics

  19. #19
    Comfortably Numb John Powell's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 17th, 2005
    Location
    Bayou Country, LA
    Posts
    3,432
    So it's not possible to have a truly extensive negative keyword list at M right now. Deduction... Broad Match should be avoided there.
    Do the negative keywords effect "phrase" match or just "broad" match?


  20. #20
    Comfortably Numb John Powell's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 17th, 2005
    Location
    Bayou Country, LA
    Posts
    3,432
    If ad managers could see all the examples that broad matching displays, they'd be horrified. Those that aren't horrified don't understand what the CTR calculation at G and M do as a result of it and how it impacts their costs and positions.
    I was looking in AdWords help and found that for "broad" they use "expanded matching". This means that for the phrase "web hosting" you might get shown for "website hosting". The interesting thing they say is:
    Also, expanded-match terms aren't included in our calculations for your minimum quality threshold; therefore, they don't affect your ad's rank.
    Help Center


  21. #21
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    Expanded matching is not the only type of match that occurs under Broad category. So while they're saying expanded doesn't hurt your quality score, they're not saying which matches are expanded broad and which are non-expanded broad. The examples I gave above were all regular, non-expanded broad match and they will hurt your quality score.

    And even if the expanded don't hurt your quality score, as their relevance decays away from your intended targets, your roi will suffer.

    You cannot turn expanded matching on or off, it just comes along with the Broad choice - another reason to stay away from it. And sometimes synonyms are completely irrelevant.

    Yet another unitended consequence is your evaluation of your keyword performance. Expanded match, and it's lower ROI, are mapped back to particular keywords. So as you make judgments about certain keywords performance and worth, the data is tainted by expanded situations that can mask the true, intended use of the keyword and it's performance. So you'll be making judgements based on bad data.

    If you're huge and share is your goal, all this won't matter much to your intended plan and aim. If you're roi based, as virtually every ABW affiliate should be, it matters a whole bunch.

  22. #22
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    A specific example... expanded match considers these two words to be interchangeable... "carpeting" and "rug"...

    If you're a rug merchant and you want to try and sell rugs to people searching for carpeting, you're aggressive. If you're an affiliate and you do that, you're dreaming.

  23. #23
    Comfortably Numb John Powell's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 17th, 2005
    Location
    Bayou Country, LA
    Posts
    3,432
    If you're huge and share is your goal, all this won't matter much to your intended plan and aim. If you're roi based, as virtually every ABW affiliate should be, it matters a whole bunch.
    The only thing getting huge here is my gut. I'm definitely focused on ROI and I really appreciate you taking the time to give a detailed explanation.


  24. #24
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Winter Park, FL
    Posts
    6,930
    Quote Originally Posted by bumpaw
    Do the negative keywords effect "phrase" match or just "broad" match?
    Yep, affects phrase match as well.

    I never fly w/o my negs.

  25. #25
    ABW Ambassador
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    Nunya, Business
    Posts
    23,684
    Thanks for the answers, haven't read them yet, have a migraine. But I did get my first sales today via MSN PPC, so that's good.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. MSN Adcenter Downtime
    By MoneyBusiness in forum Search Engine Optimization
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: October 7th, 2006, 12:21 PM
  2. Any MSN Adcenter Users Here Now?
    By melty in forum Search Engine Optimization
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: September 5th, 2006, 09:18 PM
  3. MSN Adcenter Delay
    By MoneyBusiness in forum Search Engine Optimization
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: July 20th, 2006, 07:31 PM
  4. MSN adCenter
    By John Powell in forum Search Engine Optimization
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: April 13th, 2006, 01:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •