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  1. #1
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Conspiracy, Coincidental or Real Motivation for Mandatory JS Link?

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador
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    pre-planned leakage?

  3. #3
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    And remember this part of the CJ TOS update last summer?

    (iii) maintain a privacy policy on Your Web site and for any non-Web site based promotional method made available to Visitors

  4. #4
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb
    Spin City

  5. #5
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    ?????

    VC just made up they now have a behavioral marketing product? Issued press releases on a really nonexistent product?

  6. #6
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Exclamation
    a pdf file on the Web dated 4/24/06



    http://www.valueclick.com/news/press...060424_vcm.pdf

  7. #7
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herb ԿԬ
    Spin City
    I was referring to their known habits.

    I also don't think this invention of theirs was made for our advantage. but I'm mentally filing all this under datamining.

    actually, it could/might work for us if the visitor returns to the merchant while within the normal return days. so now we have to look for changes (shortening) there? (just to keep the theory going)
    Last edited by Herb ԿԬ; June 3rd, 2006 at 11:13 AM.

  8. #8
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    continued:
    so our visitors provide more information to our Trusted Third Party who then makes hay from it.

    and where's our cut?

  9. #9
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    It's all about "Intelligent Technology for Digital Marketing"

  10. #10
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Thanks for clarifying what you meant Herb, I wasn't sure. Obviously.

    actually, it could/might work for us if the visitor returns to the merchant while within the normal return days. so now we have to look for changes (shortening) there?
    Not sure makes a it difference as far as a consumer returning to the merchant's web site. It's being used on the publisher's web site, not the merchant's.

    I've got something else to wrap up that is time sensitive (needs to be done by noon). But I have some more info related to changes with the domains/servers used in tracking cj links that I'll post when I'm finished with the other thing.

  11. #11
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    >>>it is being used on the publisher's site<<<



    yes and VC picks up some information and uses it to deliver a more useful "experience" to the visitor on their next visit to the merchant. All well and good, but we can only possibly benefit if the visitor happens to come back during the return-day window. After that, of course, VC/CJ/Merchant gets all the benefits, as I'm sure they are not going to let the mined data expire very quickly.

    . . . later

  12. #12
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    Hey Trust, look! A Conspeeeeraaaseeee

  13. #13
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    Kellie's smart tho and actually has links and puts it together and reasons for why she thinks things. Little more in depth then they're all out to get me because I had a bad April. But we can discuss in another thread if you want and not throw this one off track.


    Have no idea what they're up to but if it's going away from wanting to be an affiliate network, they should let everybody know. Time will tell, I do feel sorry tho for the soon to be javascript only new merchants, only 3 weeks away.

  14. #14
    Moderator leeann's Avatar
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    I don't get it. What is being brought into focus here? That CJ may be breaching privacy agreements?
    leeann


    Shoppers determine what has value and they like coupons. Stop manipulating who set the cookie just because you do not like coupon and promotional sites.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeann
    I don't get it. What is being brought into focus here? That CJ may be breaching privacy agreements?
    they are data-mining your website and soon will be taking over your business.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrustNo1
    Little more in depth then they're all out to get me because I had a bad April.
    where there is smoke, there is fire.

  17. #17
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    So, let me see if I understand:

    VC found that data mining allows them to target customers by putting up individual ads that they believe will specifically appeal to that user. This can result in a dramatic increase in conversions.

    By allowing JS on our sites it is possible for VC to take the information they have learned about the user through data mining and show an ad that they think will convert best when the user visits our site.

    An example of this in action: Let's say that VC knows the user has just been to three sites looking for baby beds and visits our baby furniture site and we have a page on baby furniture - VC will know to show the ad that promotes baby beds.

    If this is right, it seems to me that we will not have any control over the links on our page as VC wants that control so they can vary the ad based on the person.

    It's definitely a departure from the current standard but I can see the value on it for affiliates who just display branding ads. With this model, you don't need 100 links on a page, just one that shows what the user is after.

    The problem of course is if VC gets it wrong and the user ISN'T after the product it thinks he is or decides he's tired of looking for baby beds and wants to see something else baby related or customers want choices between several merchants or they aren't sure what they are after so don't define their search properly or the merchant hasn't defined the links properly or .... the list goes on ...

    This is definitely a major departure from the current model where affiliates are in a position to actually add value and influence the customer.

  18. #18
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    that is one of the few topics where Michael and CJ disagrees.

    are we publishers (according to cj)? or are we marketers (according to us) ?

    what do you think?

  19. #19
    general fuq mrbshouse's Avatar
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    this will come down to what congress considers as Yovanno put it "non-personally identifiable behaviors of the user". As noted on a previous post about HR 29, if they think because they have a JS running on the page that they think they are legally entitled to this "data" they may be mistaken. Furthermore, if they are planning this they should try to cover their butts a bit better by giving us a detailed check list of what needs to be addressed in the privacy policy.

    HR 29 makes it unlawful for a person to:
    (1) transmit to a protected computer any information collection program (a program that collects personally identifiable information and uses the information to send advertising), unless such program provides notice required by this Act before execution of any of the program's collection functions;.....
    *Provides an exception with respect to Web pages visited within a particular website when the information collected is sent only to the provider of the website accessed......

    Remember now, Congress almost considered a cookie a program and only an amended version clarified this.

    Don't get me wrong, i'm not totally against this, but I don't want all my eggs in one basket either. It was not said that this is related at all to the CJ issue, VC has lots of Real Estate.

    http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=73985 (previous post)

  20. #20
    Affiliate Marketing Consultant Andy Rodriguez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kip
    So, let me see if I understand:

    VC found that data mining allows them to target customers by putting up individual ads that they believe will specifically appeal to that user. This can result in a dramatic increase in conversions.

    By allowing JS on our sites it is possible for VC to take the information they have learned about the user through data mining and show an ad that they think will convert best when the user visits our site.

    An example of this in action: Let's say that VC knows the user has just been to three sites looking for baby beds and visits our baby furniture site and we have a page on baby furniture - VC will know to show the ad that promotes baby beds.

    If this is right, it seems to me that we will not have any control over the links on our page as VC wants that control so they can vary the ad based on the person.

    It's definitely a departure from the current standard but I can see the value on it for affiliates who just display branding ads. With this model, you don't need 100 links on a page, just one that shows what the user is after.

    The problem of course is if VC gets it wrong and the user ISN'T after the product it thinks he is or decides he's tired of looking for baby beds and wants to see something else baby related or customers want choices between several merchants or they aren't sure what they are after so don't define their search properly or the merchant hasn't defined the links properly or .... the list goes on ...

    This is definitely a major departure from the current model where affiliates are in a position to actually add value and influence the customer.
    <<< This is my opinion and my opinion only >>>

    Kip, you are so close ......

    Many of you know me well enough that you know my background is print and online advertising. Yes, advertising.....

    One of the companies i workd for as my career developed was "Real Media", now it's called 247RealMedia. Link: http://www.247realmedia.com/index.html?navSource=TopNav

    I joined them after my tenure at the Miami Herald, where I was online sales manager. (read advertising) My job at Realmedia was to sell OAS, Open Ad Stream, now gone through several revisions and upgrades but still the basic software I sold throughout the US and Latin America.

    Kellie was correct in her hunches, and now Kip is geting really, really close.

    IMO and MO only, CJ is going the VC path. In the presense of fierce market competion, they need to leverage the network of "publishers" (YOU) on the CJ network to add more value to their (VC's) customer base....

    They want to move what we know as affiliate marketing, into advertising. They have always called you "publishers" remember, we called publishers anyone the was getting paid to run our ads.

    Read some of the industry buzz so you can expand your knowledge of "traditional online advertising"

    - http://www.247realmedia.com/index.html?navSource=TopNav
    - http://www.247realmedia.com/products/3_reasons_why.html

    By polling and controlling data that is mined, the network can now deliver ads that are in context based on stored user profiles that have visited other network run sites. So, all affiliates will in essence feed demos and usage patterns via CJ to VC, VC now has all your traffic data and can serve and deliver what they would consider relevant ads.

    Can anyone say "network complaince bots" ?

    Folks, this is what online advertising is today......

    - http://www.doubleclick.com/us/produc...l_advertising/
    - http://www.accipiter.com/

    And who is MediaPlex? - http://www.mediaplex.com/

    What is MOJO? - http://www.mediaplex.com/MOJO_Adserver.shtml

    Read the PDF - http://www.mediaplex.com/brochures/M...r_Brochure.pdf

    What does this all mean?
    Is it bad?

    It's not bad, it's what the major companies, major advertisers and top adserving networks have done since online became online. I know, I worked selling the software and the analytics...

    Does it mean you as affiliates will loose control, yes. You are not affiliates in their view remember, you are publishers. As publishers, your job is to offer your realestate, your traffic and let the network serve up the most relevant ad and campaing they have under contract. (read merchants).

    This is what adserving was with traditional banners when the web started, the software can track a user through it's network of sites (read properties, newspapers and now affiliate sites) and deliver relevant content (read ads and then products when the feed goes java)...

    So there you have short synopsis, I can talk much more about this since I lived it..... again, the views expressed above are based on my opinion alone...
    Andy Rodriguez Consulting, Affiliate Program Management and Consulting Services, Since 2001
    www.andyrodriguez.com | E: abw@andyrodriguez.com | P: (888) 931-ANDY (2639) | Skype: affiliatedoctor | AIM & MSN: AffiliateDoctor | Subscribe To Our ABW Forum Posts | Follow me on Twitter | Join Our Affiliate Programs

  21. #21
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    Spot on!

    http://www.mediaplex.com "Intelligent Technology for Digital Marketing"

  22. #22
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Rodriguez
    They have always called you "publishers" remember, we called publishers anyone the was getting paid to run our ads.
    Not to detract from your otherwise excellent post, but this is not how it has always been. Originally, CJ called affiliates "affiliates" and merchants "merchants". I think it was about 3-4 years ago when they changed it to "publishers" and "advertisers". I griped about it then, but it was just a name. Other than the names, nothing really changed. Until now. Now they've forgotten that we are affiliates and are starting to treat us like publishers.

    I do think there's more to the LMI than what they're saying. Kellie's theory seems more feasible than most of the speculation out there, but I still think there's some unseen driving force behind it. Something this asinine had to have had a lot of opposition internally (unless they only employ "yes men"), yet it's going forward with a vengeance. They're totally ignoring the voice of reason (and the frantic voice of shock). It's like nobody at CJ (that I've talked to anyway) has a voice in the matter.
    Michael Coley
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  23. #23
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    I do think there's more to the LMI than what they're saying.
    Probably, but maybe not. It all boils down to money. If they are getting such a spectacular ROI from using the JS data mining links then they have no reason to keep the legacy links (I agree that's bad but I can see why they would not want them from a business perspective.)

    Yes, they are going to lose affiliates who won't make the switch but even if they lose upwards of 25% of the affiliates CJ/VC should still come out ahead due to the increased conversion ratio.

    As discussed elsewhere, this is going to be a HUGE change for a lot of affiliates - not only in how their existing sites are laid out, but it represents a fundamental shift in the way CJ treats affiliates.

    I can understand why some would not want to make the change, but for those that do the possibilities are pretty staggering. A user comes to your site and your site shows images or text of what the user is most interested in. You don't have to do anything, it's served automatically. It increases your conversions because it's something the user is personally interested in.

    This is going to hurt a lot of affiliates, but I see where some could really benefit from it. I think the transition stage will be pretty painful and full of problems (all CJ system changes are) but once it's completed it will represent a huge shift for affiliate marketing. I have no clue how datafeeds will work with the new JS, but I think from a display ad perspective it could be effective.

  24. #24
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    A couple of things on this page bother me.

    Cookies / Javascript

    A cookie is nothing but a small text file that's stored in your browser. It contains some data:

    >A name-value pair containing the actual data
    >An expiry date after which it is no longer valid
    >The domain and path of the server it should be sent to

    As soon as you request a page from a server to which a cookie should be sent, the cookie is added to the HTTP header. Server side programs can read then out the informationand decide that you have the right to view the page you requested or that you want your links to be yellow on a green background.

    So every time you visit the site the cookie comes from, information about you is available. This is very nice sometimes, at other times it may somewhat endanger your privacy. Fortunately more and more browsers give you the opportunity to manage your cookies (deleting the one from the big ad site, for example).

    Cookies can be read by JavaScript too. They're mostly used for storing user preferences.
    The site the cookie is coming from is not the affiliate's site, it's a VC site. So according to that, isn't information about the visitor is being delivered to VC whenever that surfer visits *any* page that's also serving VC's cookies, regardless of who that page belongs to?

    Then VC could have server side programs running to aggregate all the information for data mining purposes, to be used for purposes that have nothing whatsoever to do with the publishers, affiliate marketing or setting cookies to pay commissions, but for and by "contextual" programs of theirs that have nothing whatsoever to do with why affiliates are involved with CJ programs.

    Cookies will be sent to VC servers, with publishers having no knowledge of how that information will be used, or what information is being collected - or even what's in the JS programs that are being called and executed.

    This is using publisher sites to gather information without publisher knowledge of what or what for. There's no way any affiliate can put up a privacy policy that makes them immune from being guilty of infractions of privacy legislation, being just pawns that are being kept in the dark.

    Do I have that right, or am I missing something?

  25. #25
    Life is Supposed to be Fun! Rexanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kip

    This is going to hurt a lot of affiliates, but I see where some could really benefit from it. I think the transition stage will be pretty painful and full of problems (all CJ system changes are) but once it's completed it will represent a huge shift for affiliate marketing. I have no clue how datafeeds will work with the new JS, but I think from a display ad perspective it could be effective.
    It represents a decided lack of respect for affiliate and how they CHOSE to market products and merchants on THEIR sites. If my site is working well, converting traffic and I'm not employing any black hat methods in any areas, leave me alone and let me run MY business MY way. Cj has NO right to f*ck up MY site design or the way I chose to do business. Id I was selling retail and had a store, would a merchant have the right to come in and TELL me how to display their products? Kinda like "rack" mentality: "If you want the PRIVILAGE of selling OUR products, you have to use OUR display racks and set them up in the front of your store. F*uck that BS ... this is MY freaking traffic, I pay for the domain and hosting and it's not up to any one or any network to tell me how to run MY business. If a publisher wants CJ to control their content and sales pitches, fine. I tend to create a more personal shopping experience for my visitors and I intend to keep it that way. I don't know that CJ will not bombard MY visitors with crap. I know what I promote and offer on my site is good stuff and I intend to keep control of that "trust" I've built with my visitors and newsletter subscribers.
    Peace,

    Rexanne

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