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  1. #1
    ABW Ambassador Abigail's Avatar
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    I have recently put up a few product pages, attached them to my website, was fortunate in getting them into some nice spots on
    Google and AOL and MSN. I thought I would take the plunge and open an account with Overture - they have declined both my submissions -

    "Under this revised guideline, content in the form of a text link, banner, or tile that directs users to another Web site is not eligible for search terms."

    Any comments from those of you in the know??

  2. #2
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    I tried my darndest to get a site listed there, where I am selling products that I stock in house - it's not even an ad farm......and they rejected every single keyword out of hand. Multiple times. Despite repeated attempts on my part to explain that my keywords are referring to the generic category that my specific products should be listed in. It's like they don't listen to you. Their perceptions, flawed as they are, are not open for discussion. They don't care if their perception is flawed. I demanded a refund, and got the full amount back, and am not going to waste another moment on them. There are other search engines, kanoodle, 7search, etc....check them out, you'll have a MUCH easier time.

  3. #3
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    My true comments about OverSure's latest policy are not fit for printing on a publicly viewable board!!! I can tell you there's an F in the word for what they can do...

    Don't waste your time with Kanoodle, either. There's a thread somewhere that says they have chosen to commit suicide in the same manner as Over--that is, by rejecting affiliate listings! I think that's in the Building Site Traffic forum. The difference is, Kanoodle came right out and said it instead of making up a bunch of bogus "relevancy guidelines"!

    Basically the PPCs have taken the Handbasket Express this last few months! And you know where that express goes...

  4. #4
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...my keywords are referring to the generic category that my specific products should be listed in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not quite sure I understand this. Would it be something like you're selling "hammers" and they won't let you bid on "tools"?

  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador Abigail's Avatar
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    Sure appreciate your input guys - I'd like to make this thing fly if I can, since I find myself "sans employment" these days. Any suggestions other than Kandoodle

  6. #6
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    Overture is just plain old greedy, IMO.
    Last week, I took on the job of keyword bidding and opening new advertising accounts for my cousin's webhosting service.
    It is an adult webhosting service, so some of his bids at Overture are over $2.00 per click.

    Needless to say, he spends a good amount with them every month, and it is not a reseller , or affiliate site.

    I was able to find over two dozen perfectly good , relevant, targeted keywords and they were rejected. They can say what ever BS they want, but they were rejected because they were for nickels and dimes, not dollars which they seem to think every freakin click is worth.

    So, these terms were rejected , yet there are others "grandfathered" in for the same terms at 1 cent per click at the #1 spot .

    You would "think" that if they had any brains, they would be happy to replace the 1 cent bids with 5 cent bids ,but No, the greedy MFer's only approved those listings that were for over $1.00 a click , those were "relevent" enough for them :rolleyes:

    I can recall an article a while back where the CEO of "GOTO" , was complaining that their clicks were going away much too cheap, and gave the example that the term "aluminum siding " should get about $5.00 a click, or some ridiculous figure , and not the 10 cents or so a click it was going for .

    And NO, I'm NOT getting into the "adult scene" at all, but I know that's how it may look to some of you .


    Lisa

  7. #7
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and gave the example that the term "aluminum siding " should get about $5.00 a click,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If that's anywhere near a real quote then whoever said it is out of touch with reality.

    Any idea where you saw that? I'd be interested to read the source.

    Elisabeth Archambault

  8. #8
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    I'll see if I can find it, it was an old article . I somehow stumbled onto it when reading about the company , and I was "thinking" of buying their stock.

    Don't quote me on the "$5.00 per click", but it was a ridiculous figure for a "click", that I can tell you from memory.

    Going to see if I can find it !


    Lisa

  9. #9
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>(June 2001) But its auction-style pricing, in which the highest bidder gets the best listing, is mainly a function of supply and demand. "Right now the top listing for aluminum siding is 6 cents," he said. "It's ludicrous that a lead for aluminum siding is only worth 6 cents. We just haven't attracted enough attention from the aluminum siding folks." (The top category, data recovery-which computer users turn to in desperation-often exceeds $20 a click.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Full article HERE

  10. #10
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    You beat me to it, Cedric !

    Okay, so I was wrong about the $5.00 per click, but the comparison to $20 a click for "data recovery" suggested to me that they think it should be worth A LOT more per click , as in dollars !
    ( I must have come up with that $5 number in my own head, but I wouldn't doubt that's the same number he was thinking )

    Also, notice how he calls a click "a lead", which it is NOT ! They do not seem to realize that a "click" is a "click" , It is NOT a qualified lead, which could indeed demand a higher amount per targeted consumer. A click is a click, that's it.

    Why it should cost "something substantial", is because it is a "targeted click", but calling them "leads" is way off base.

    They DO NOT collect demographics, they do not even know who clicks on the ads, they could be kids, competitors, etc.

    They are out of their minds in assuming that an unscreened , unknown surfers "click" is a valid lead worth dollars !!!

    Lisa

    [ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: Lisa ]

  11. #11
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    yes, elisabeth- "hammers" and "tools" would be an appropriate comparison. It's over now, though. One of the costs that must be figured into affiliate marketing is time, and the cost in time is too high with Overture. It takes too much energy and time to submit keywords through their tortuous process, so I just don't bother! I mean, life is too short, you know?

  12. #12
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>One of the costs that must be figured into affiliate marketing is time,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> An even worse cost is hassle and frustration!!

    My Overture spending these days is about one-fiftieth of what it was this time last year. My only terms now are some cheap grandfathered bids which I'm leaving in place. I don't see how *anyone* wins with their current behaviour (I nearly typed "current policies" but decided that was too dignified a label for the situation).

    Elisabeth Archambault

    Edited to correct a typo.

    [ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: buckworks.com ]

  13. #13
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    Overture's stock bounced back up real quick, hugh ? Unreal... It's over $32 a share again .

    I don't get it, will they ever die ?
    If they have agreed to pay AOL alone $50 million for a year and a half, how many millions do you suppose goes to MSN, Yahoo!, etc. ?

    I guess Overture has to be greedy, because it's the only way for them to survive and profit. Without ripping off their advertisers, and giving small time advertisers the shaft, they can not have enough money to pay their partners which make them who they are .

    So, once again... Money makes money, and the little guy doesn't even get a chance .

    I don't know if I like the idea of being an affiliate anymore , it looks like a dead end from here on in, unless you are highly skilled at optimizing webpages , which too will probably do you little good in the near future, when only money , and nothing else but money gets you a top listing for anything worth a dime .


    Lisa

  14. #14
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    Is it me or are Overture's clicks turning to a higher percentage of "empty clicks". Since they have been cracking down on this insanity of theirs more of my click throughs are nothing but empty screens.

    I think them saying they are doing what the average web surfer wants is fantasy and the average surfer is going somwhere else to search.

    Many of my keywords are in the top three for minimum bid and even those are a higher percentage of no-lead clicks these days.

    Overture treads water well, but no one can forever.

  15. #15
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    I spend over $50,000 a year in Overture clicks. With the Yahoo agreement, my traffic increased about 20% on some of my sites.

    It disturbs me too that they have become real hard-asses with their screening of new submissions. Despite all of the revenue I give them, they still treat me like crap. However, they still bring in some serious traffic!

    ***THERE IS A SECRET TO GET LISTED***

    I will be glad to share this with my new friends here at ABWeb...

    The site reviewers at Overture are pratically minimum wage workers. Many have an IQ under 100. Another large percentage of them are just plain lazy. You can use this to your advantage if you do it the right way.

    Let's say you are looking to bid on the term tools for a site that sells hammers through an affiliate program. You and I know that sales pages with little to no content are the best converters for a product like hammers. If you submitted the site it would be denied due to the new regulations. This is how you get around it...

    Write a few pages of content about hammers, saws, and many types of tools. It doesn't even have to be good. Just a bunch of words and pictures about tools. Include about a dozen links to other sites about tools. The links need to work, but some can point to the same site. What you are doing is letting the editors at Overture view a site that meets all of their guidelines. Chances are, you will get that submission approved.

    Once it is approved, take down the bogus page and put up your storefront. Save the bogus template in case you ever are reviewed by Overture the following year. They'll give you ten days to get your site back into compliance before they yank your listing. All you need to do is the sneaky switch again. Once a listing is looked at and found to be in compliance, you'll get a free ride for at least another year under their current site review system.

    If this sound simple, that's because it is. Overture would go broke trying to police every one of their millions of listings in any shorter time frame than once a year.

  16. #16
    ABW Veteran Student Heyder's Avatar
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    That's a good idea but the real issue is why in the hell do they think anybody with a content site is going to pay for a visitor?

    What moron would pay money and not expect a return on that money?

    What morons would think that some other moron is going to make a website and pay the original morons money for traffic if the other morons is going to loose their arses for every visitor to the page?

    What morons? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    It's moronic!!

  17. #17
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    Heyder,
    Maybe it pays to be a moron :confused:

    We thought Overture was moronic, but look what happened in the last quarter for them ... their revenue increased over 150% !

    What the heck, it worked for Forrest Gump too [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    Lisa

  18. #18
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    Seaslug, that idea would probably work.

    The thing is, that for all the hash it takes to get into Over now, it's easier to optimize for Google!

    It is seriously Fudged Up when it's easier to get a listing in a FREE engine than one that demands payment!

    As for how their stock got back up so quick, did you guys see the latest email announcements from OverSure? They kept their Yahoo and MSN partnerships...investors (in general) seem to have the memory span of an amoeba and that other place dumping Over is probably already forgotten!

    OverSure's revenue increasing just sucks! But I would have to examine just how they arrived at that figure, though, before agreeing that "being moronic" was what was responsible! There's quite a few things companies can do to "increase" their earnings without really earning the money in the expected way, like booking funded accounts as "sales" (claiming all the unused bidding account money is Income as if it was really already used and non-refundable), switching accounting methods mid-stream, selling assets, etc.!!! A lot of these methods are indeed legal and result in a "one-time" event which can cause a big change in the financial report...

    Of course, they could really be fluking out and making money with the Moronic Listing Management Method--FOR NOW. But after people try listing sites that "meet their criteria" (without changing them over to a Real Revenue Site later--most probably won't think of that) and finding out that that's the way to die, I would say that Over's criteria will still be the end of them when more and more people refuse to list under those conditions (that is, more than Over planned for...)!

  19. #19
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    A good chunk of their increase came from payments from Yahoo and MSN.

    It was a one time shot as far as I can tell.

    What you really want to see is the FREE CASH FLOW. That's thenumber that tells you how well or not they are doing.

  20. #20
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    Leader,

    I would love a lesson about how to optimize my sites for Google. I have had exactly ZERO luck with Google and most of the other real search engines. I'm not sure what I've been doing wrong. I use frames in some of my sites and I was assuming that this was my problem.

    What's the secret??

  21. #21
    Assistant Regional Manager Rik's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The real issue is why in the hell do they think anybody with a content site is going to pay for a visitor?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That's exactly what I was thinking. I have a 50/50 content/affiliate site and at the moment I don't think a PPC listing would be worth it right now. Like leader (kind of) said I'm better off optimizing for Google (and other search engines).

    Are there any worth while affiliate friendly PPC search engines left in the game? Just a thought Heyder but this could be a good time to take advantage of this situation.

    [ 02-16-2002: Message edited by: Rik ]

  22. #22
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Seaslug,

    I can make a few general statements publicly (It's too easy to change an algo to get toooo specific) but nothing Earth-shattering (unless you haven't seen this info before, then it MAY be earth-shattering!).

    Plus I can't say I'm a Google Expert anyway. But it has been easier to get visible rank in Google than it has been to get into OverSure! But here's some things that seem to have worked, FWIW:

    Optimization! Put the keyphrase you want in your site's title. Forget aesthetics, too--get the keyphrase into a Headline on the page. Use the keyphrase lots on the page, too, but not repeated in a row. (None of this: Keyword, keyword, keyword, keyword. It will be spotted as Spam!)

    That kind of writing can get your page to be listed as if it was 2 PageRanks higher than it really is, IF the other sites in your category are not doing the same thing, too. (Note that your ACTUAL pagerank will NOT change from keyword op!!!) This is according to an article I read somewhere (sorry, forgot where), and from what I've seen it's fairly accurate. SKILL has a lot to do with this technique--expect results to vary, and improve with practice. I've had results range from a rise equal to 1-3 points in PageRank, and if every site in a category is doing keyword op, there will be No Change, even with skill.

    Speaking of keyphrases, it's a LOT easier to snag a decent listing under a keyPHRASE than a keyWORD. Single words are hotly competitive!

    As for links, linkpop does count, too...especially in those categories where EVERYBODY knows about keyword op and for the single-word categories.

    Perhaps as important as all of this: Read the Building Site Traffic forum.

    Some sites have been removed from Google and there's quite a bit of speculation as to the reasons for it in that forum, ranging from incorrect use of CSS to potentially bad linking strategies that may be responsible...

  23. #23
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>linkpop does count, too<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thanks leader for the info. Any thoughts on how to increase link popularity?

  24. #24
    Assistant Regional Manager Rik's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Any thoughts on how to increase link popularity?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Trade links with websites similar in nature to your own.

  25. #25
    ABW Ambassador Abigail's Avatar
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    Speaking of Google - anybody seen that googlebot guy scurying through lately??

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