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  1. #1
    Newbie TheHoff's Avatar
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    Exclamation A brilliant summary of the real reason behind LMI
    Beth Kirsch of Lowermybills.com lays it all out very clearly....

    http://www.revenews.com/bethkirsch/archives/001935.html

    Original credit for fleshing out the analytics idea from Cumbrowski...

    http://www.cumbrowski.com/roysac/blo...ics-redux.html

  2. #2
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  3. #3
    Newbie TheHoff's Avatar
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    Ah I somehow missed that thread completely, thanks; Kellie always has the scoop. Quite a few people here were also complaining about the stats this will turn over to CJ but the blog from Kirsch this morning gets all the data in a row and lays it out in a very public way.

  4. #4
    Outsourced Program Manager
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    No worries. I read Beth's article, and it sounds like she's saying that all CJ affiliate sites will become cookie cannons.

    JavaScript text links can set a cookie when the script is called from the server to display the link while with HTML the user must click though the link to the advertiser’s site for a cookie to be set. This is a key difference.

    Yikes.

  5. #5
    Newbie TheHoff's Avatar
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    I don't think she meant sales tracking cookies-- not to mark who's sale it is-- but simply (the all overseeing) ValueClick tracking cookie.

  6. #6
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
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    I read it too. Take note of the evolving eBay story - they are likely moving away from CJ being able to mine the eBay shopping data so CJ can't resell / repurpose / re-use it for other purposes.

    All merchants will choose this same path eventually.

    So CJ, by trying to leverage their reach (current links everywhere), will cut it off when merchants see they're being used for a different purpose.

    If the phone company announced they were changing things so they could always listen, even when the phone was hung up anbd sitting in it's cradle... you know, to leverage all those existing wires... people would start ripping their darn phones off the wall...

  7. #7
    Internet Cowboy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Nunez
    ...it sounds like she's saying that all CJ affiliate sites will become cookie cannons.
    I noticed that too. I hope this never happens.
    While on the surface I am all warm and fuzzy about CJ making me filthy rich by blasting cookies, inside I am forced to re-think my entire operation if I am to participate in this. It is no longer about trading a slice of val;ue for a click if the cookie is being set onload.
    The really scary part of this possibilityis how much more prolific it will make BHOs. A page can now pop and load 200 cookies? Certainly we would not be able to load a page and set dozens of cookies. The merchants would never go for this...unless they were clueless and had an AM who worked in Personel last month or a motivated network AM....
    Regardless, CJ would have the option of setting the cookie on page load for any affiliate or merchant they wish. This is not scary as long as they treat all affiliates (and merchants) with equal respect.


  8. #8
    notary sojac Herb ΤΏΤ¬'s Avatar
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    Exclamation
    respect is nice . . .

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheHoff
    I don't think she meant sales tracking cookies-- not to mark who's sale it is-- but simply (the all overseeing) ValueClick tracking cookie.
    I agree. But they could right? If it is just "behavior watching", it kinda sucks that affiliates are going to be treated like data miners. I suspect this is what unclescooter means by wanting "respect".

  10. #10
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Don't confuse user-tracking cookies with sale-tracking cookies. They're not messing with sale-tracking cookies.
    Michael Coley
    Amazing-Bargains.com
     Affiliate Tips | Merchant Best Practices | Affiliate Friendly? | Couponing | CPA Networks? | ABW Tips | Activating Affiliates
    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

  11. #11
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheHoff
    Original credit for fleshing out the analytics idea from Cumbrowski...

    http://www.cumbrowski.com/roysac/blo...ics-redux.html
    Wow! Great article. Very, very long, but it covers just about everything.
    Michael Coley
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  12. #12
    Affiliate Manager 1av8r's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be nice if affs could be paid based on each VC cookie placed so that they could participate in the downstream revenue it will eventually generate?
    Last edited by 1av8r; June 9th, 2006 at 12:26 PM. Reason: grammar

  13. #13
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelColey
    They're not messing with sale-tracking cookies.
    I beg to differ. See POST headers side of the story.

    http://forum.abestweb.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=71

  14. #14
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
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    While you may view it as not messing with the cookie per se, it certainly messes with how the sale-tracking cookie is created (and modified via overwriting).

  15. #15
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    And it gives them the ability to do whatever they want to. CJ will essentially become one huge BHO that reports back to the mother ship whatever the mother ship wants. Think about it.


  16. #16
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Okay, they're changing some things about it, but not like UncleScooter and others were implying. Just showing the JavaScript on our sites won't set a click/sale-tracking cookie. A click will still be required.
    Michael Coley
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  17. #17
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    Yeah, if they did that wouldn't all the merchants EPC just drop, don't think they want that. Plus they would violate their own rules (setup for jokes i know)

  18. #18
    Internet Cowboy
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelColey
    Okay, they're changing some things about it, but not like UncleScooter and others were implying. Just showing the JavaScript on our sites won't set a click/sale-tracking cookie. A click will still be required.
    We are both speculating, Michael. I speculate the possibility of them blasting cookies for at least some of their "special" partners as they have done very special favors for them in the past, and you speculate that they will stay on the up and up and not do this.

    Niether of us really knows. All we have to base our speculation on is the events of the past and how they were handled.


  19. #19
    What's the word? Rhia7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheHoff
    Beth Kirsch of Lowermybills.com lays it all out very clearly....

    http://www.revenews.com/bethkirsch/archives/001935.html

    Original credit for fleshing out the analytics idea from Cumbrowski...

    http://www.cumbrowski.com/roysac/blo...ics-redux.html

    Thank you for the articles.
    ~Rhia7 -- Remember the 7
    Twitter me

  20. #20
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    Haha, never thought anything I did will be called brilliant by anyone on ABW. Hoff, you made a bunch of us who have been flamed to a sizzle over the years laugh. Thank you for the kind feedback.

    Cheers,

    Beth

  21. #21
    ABW Ambassador
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    It was a brilliant summary of this thread:

    http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread...&highlight=LMI

    Good job. ABW is here to help everybody, even the sizzled.

  22. #22
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    Are the Javasyript links like those?


    xscriptx
    location = "click-xxxxx-yyyy";
    x/scriptx

    If yes, the cookie is set onload. And of course no affiliate sites with any content are necessary. It is then a simple redirection to the merchants site. This could be the reason why merchants do not complain about it.


    roland

  23. #23
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    No, the links are nothing like that. There's an example in CJ's FAQ. Basically, it's an external JavaScript include that displays the text/creative (and probably implements a new type of link with the parameters in a POST). We'll know better after 6/23 when the new links are available.
    Michael Coley
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  24. #24
    Lite On The Do, Heavy On The Nuts Donuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelColey
    A click will still be required.
    In the terms of service perhaps, but not from a technology standpoint.

    A regular html link meant a normal GET header transaction was intiated by a manual click via embedded browser functionality (and could be forced using trickery). But since the javascript will use POST headers sent as their default method of registering a click, a header spoofer need only send a fraudulent POST header to register a click and it need not be contained within the machinations of a browser's click / call / header functionality. This was partly true before LMI, but now browser independent cheating mechanisms need not imitate a browser's usual transaction steps other than sending a POST header, which is more easily spoofed than complete transactions.

    In my opinion, this will spawn new methods of commission thievery and will also make detection harder for affiliates, especially those that don't use a sniffer.

  25. #25
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    When it comes to fraudulent methods, you're right. It'll be vulnerable to most of the existing methods and new ones will be created as well.

    But that's not what I was talking about. Some were speculating that LMI would introduce a paradigm shift, where affiliate click/sale tracking cookies would be set just by viewing pages with JavaScript ads rather than requiring a click. That's certainly not going to happen, and isn't worth speculating about.
    Michael Coley
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    "Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world." Nelson Mandela

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