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  1. #1
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    If you read all the posts about Parasiteware, the scumware, the pure and simple 'we don't care' attitudes about the outright theft from affililates by the adnetworks and the adnetworks themselves - and you are an affiliate - you are getting screwed.

    So what do you do about it? Absolutely NOTHING except whine and complain.

    Do you file a lawsuit in small claims court? NO.

    Do you file a complaint at your local police department? NO.

    Do you contact your local media and tell them what's happening? NO

    Do you contact your local and national elected officials and tell them what is happening? NO.

    And the list goes on and on and on and on.

    WHY NOT?

    Because either you love getting screwed or you don't have enough guts to stand up and be counted.

    You are all waiting for Haiko or me or BluesX to do it for you.

    And then it becomes a game of will they or won't they or when and the proverbial fools all make bets as to when. And they become a part of the problem and not the solution.

    Well NOW is when - There are two kinds of lawsuits - simple and complex.

    What I am doing is very complex and includes building all ancillary channels and stuff you need to win. It took time - 8 months to be exact. Now it's all in place and D-day will be as soon after June 6th as I can get all the final i's dotted andf t's crossed.

    But what about you - why aren't you all doing the same thing on a smaller scale. To file a small claims suit you only have to fill out a one or two page form and attach a statement about what your claim is about.

    And it's real simple - it's about theft, fraud, breach of contract, unlawful conversion and violation of agency.

    You have the video of Morpheus actually stealing links. You have posts and emails from CJ, BeFree and Linkshare Officers telling you they know about the theft, unlawful conversion and fraud right here in the posts here and in cashpile.

    And I am sure if you ask - people here will send you all the evidence you need.

    You have a copy of all three adnetworks TOS in which they SPECIFICALLY outline the EXACT things you must do and THEY must do as a part of the agreement.

    With regards to Morpheus and such the adnets have all violated their own TOS as a result it's a breach of contract.

    With regards to tracking and sale reporting, they have violated their own TOS, even if it's a fact they are technologically unable to perform what they say they will do in their TOS.

    You relied on them to deliver what they said. They didn't - it's there fault unless they redo the TOS to deal with the situation.

    If you do not understand that you are simply being USED by these people to pad their bank accounts and that a huge majority of that money RIGHTFULLY AND LAWFULLY should be yours, and that YOUR family and you are or will suffer financially and probably in others ways then it's time for you to get a MAJOR clue.

    It's not going to stop unless you PERSONALLY help stop it. Unless you take action, you are continually going to see whatever income level you have achieved from you online busines decline and decline.

    And you can bet that even if I sue them they will keep on trucking.

    I am 99.95% certain, that after they do all their grandstanding they will offer to settle and that a part of the settlement will be a gag clause on me and they will offer me something in the realm of $10 to $25 miillion.

    Why because the heat and the effect of the suit will eventually cost them more than that and I am not some ignorant twit they can brow beat. They pay me and life goes on as usual, because it's a civil deal.

    And if you really think they are going to
    take this to a trial you need to stop smoking that bad weed. They have NO prayer in a courtroom, NONE - especially in small claims court.

    Now here is what will happen if you file a complaint in small claims -

    They don't show up and you win. You wait 30 days - that's usually the time frame they have to appeal, so during that time you shut up and make yourself scarce. The day after the appeal period is over, you follow the court procedured to collect and you inform everyone you have won and they haven't paid up. If they don't pay then you get the court to help you collect.

    They show up and you present your evidence. They more than likely will have hired an attorney to handle the case and he will be clueless about it. YOU win because 1. attorneys in small cliams are a NO-NO, 2. Your evidence is hard copy indisputable.

    Now they can appeal the decision and that's where it might get tricky. Normally, you just present your evidence before the appeal judge and they get to whine and complain about the award. If you lose the appeal, then you can appeal and go to a full blown superior court case, in which case you need to get a legal beagle involved, but that will be easy to do, since you already have WON the case in court and now it's all about technicalities and you can then bring in all the big guns and go for punitive damages and such.

    So it's either worth it for to protect your ass or go get a day job and forget about doing what Jada did (new house) or Leader (new car) or whatever.

    Because it won't happen for you if the scum keeep doing what they are doing.

  2. #2
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    The crazy guy down at the bus stop keeps babbling about how he is going to take over the world. I am waiting until he can at least lay claim to more than 2 square feet before I back him.

    I notice crazies like to talk about the future alot and how they are one day going to get even. I also notice most businesses have press releases to announce what they have done, not what they will be doing.

    Chet

  3. #3
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    Chet

    You are absolutely right about that...when you see action, then you should react.

    You should worry more about your actions that the 'maybe' you see happeninbg elsewhere.

    Have you filed any lawsuits? have you done anything to solve the problem on your end?

    I don't know for sure either way.

    But I sent out a PR piece on the merchant boycott to 10,000 media types and got over 20,000 people to visit the merchant boycott page.

    I am not just whining about filing a lawsuit. Normally, I wouldn't say boo and just go do it.

    But saying I will and all is a part of the strategy...think about that for a minute...you are smart enought to figure it out.

  4. #4
    Content $ Queen Ebudae's Avatar
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    Hi Fred. I have never sued any one so please excuse if this sounds silly....

    To sue for damages wouldn't you have to be able to prove exactally what the damages were and that they had caused them? For instance, I "could" say they had cost me $100 or a million dollars, but how to prove the ammount? How could I prove that I had missed out on sales due to them? Couldn't they just say that it could be my business was down that month?

    And if they do decide to get a lawyer, if I lose couldn't I be held liable for their lawyers fees?

    Vicki [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

  5. #5
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Fred,

    I can tell you this Morpheus thing is bigger than all of us combined, it is lying merchants and the ad networks all working together.

    I at a serious loss for words at my disgust with them all!<IMG src=http://www.abestweb.com/ubb/icons/icon36.gif> I GIVE UP!!!!

    Haiko

  6. #6
    ABW Veteran Student Heyder's Avatar
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    I don't believe the courts are going to solve this problem. I see it this way, We can either keep on taking it or fight back.

    Fighting back doesn't mean educution of the public, court battles or convincing merchants to change their ways No, fighting back is a simple fight fire with fire attitude. I've said it before and I don't understand why you've all ignored me. We need to come up with our own version of these great file sharing tools. I'd even suggest a further step and that is to have someone make a program that re-steals traffic back from the theftware companies.

    Imagine the damage inflicted when 80 million surfers are unknowningly re-stolen and sent back to merchants not taking part in the support of theftware. Take the resulting proceeds and use them for further promotion of our efforts.

  7. #7
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    There are parasite free version right now.
    http://www.kazaalite.com is exactly kazaa minus the spyware (this is the network morpheus used to be on).
    http://www.gnucleus.com/ is the open source software the morpheus is based.

    THESE ARE VALID SPYWARE FREE ALTERNATIVES!

    Promote them and promote the use of adaware to clean systems after they switch. IE crashes, are those crashes the fault of spyware?

    Chet

  8. #8
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    Although I intend to stick a small legal spanner in the works, I am very much aware, as I think Fred is, that this - for whatever reason - will not be sorted in a courtroom.

    I notice that whenever someone defends themselves against an attacker they are lectured on 'not taking the law into their own hands'. Yet whose law is it? When there is no handy policeperson about is there no law? At what point are you protected by 'law'? The Usual Suspects will have you believe the answer is 'not till you hand over your wallet to a lawyer'.

    Law is not an official edict passed down from on high (well OK it is) law in its deepest sense is just 'how things work'. Stealing is wrong and no-one needs a judge to tell them this. No one needs a judge to tell them to defend themselves too.

    By the time there is a final gladitorial show down to see who has the most expensive lawyer the outcome - whatever it will be, will be known already.

    So I am wary of our only respose to the scumware takeover being education and lawsuits. It is not enough. These are supplements, not solutions.

    I can understand Haikos despair. I think I know what the networks are up to now. They dangle the carrot, then when we've put all the work in they intend to let their pet villans graze our results while they fob us off with fine talk. In reality they are all Dans La Merde up to their pointy little ears. You can't negotiate with scum suckers, you can only enforce compliance. Begging and pleading with them is no use because it is not a language they can understand. They will understand being booted off our sites and nothing more. Attempting to talk to them as if they are real people only makes them laugh. All we will get from Todd is more delay.

    I reckon, as I've always done, that the solution is essentially a software one. Neutralise the thievery first and what they gonna pay their lawyers with?

    So this one isn't going to be decided in the courtroom but on the HD of the end user.

    If you want to get the user emotionally involved I suggest a 'one stop shop' where you can have an free online scan for 'spyware' 'popup software' and anything that causes 'security problems on the sites they visit' with removal tools and suggestions for economically neutral alternatives. Its not as if there isn't a need for this service for the general surfer.

    They can regard it as being a monthly tune up - rather like a ship going into port to get the barnacles removed.


    I

  9. #9
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    Too bad we can't just start our own damn Network.


    [edited to say]

    Why can't we just start our own damn affiliate network with our own set of tools - downloads and browser-side?

    [ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: eaglefire ]

  10. #10
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>rather like a ship going into port to get the barnacles removed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That's the best metaphor anyone has used yet! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

  11. #11
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    rather like a ship going into port to get the barnacles removed.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That's the best metaphor anyone has used yet!

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I like that too. I was thinking about something like taht the other night - something similar to McCafee's online virus scan. Could be called a performance scan.

    That would be better actually than downloads because the site can be updated weekly with the latest Parasite codes ... like an online AdAware, and the person would have to go back to the site to get scanned again so they would always get the latest version of the scan.

    [ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: eaglefire ]

  12. #12
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    Yeah, this way you only educate by stealth. Look on it as a 'data hygiene service'.

    People like free things, and you won't have to persuade them of very much to get them to realise 'cleaning up their machines' is a good idea.

    Beats trying to guilt them into it, and consent will be achieved as soon as they set eyes on the word 'clean'.

    Its not the greatest intellectual challenge we've ever faced..


    I

  13. #13
    ABW Ambassador webmarm's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>gladitorial show down <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That reminds me finally of http://www.whirlywiryweb.com/ . Rockin Fewl was set to make an OS level offense. Not sure where everything is at.

  14. #14
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    Well, the "sell" point is that these applications do degrade - ie, slow down- the performance of a user's PC or their internet connection. Even the Morpheus BHO does that - when it reloads the page to add it's code to the merchant link.

    This would be similar to, say, WebGarage, except that the offensive stuff would also be un-installed - with the opt-in of the user. If they think it will improve performance or kill pops - my experience has been that users hate them - they will be more than willing to use the service.

    What would be even better, but I don't know if this is even implementable, is a script that detects the BHO, but instead of re-directing the user to un-install it, dis-ables it temporarily and somehow encapsulates the affiliate's link so that it cannot be over-written, perhaps by way of an activex control or a java file. This way you are not losing people or depending on them to go off-site to download Morph-buster.

  15. #15
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    I agree with the posts above. Nice guys finish last, in this case. Mom had a very simple philosophy to raising children. Six words: "Hard enough, Low Enough, Soon Enough." Amazing thing is, you can apply that philosophy to just about any controversy, it works just as well.

  16. #16
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    >a script that detects the BHO, but instead of re-directing the user to un-install it, dis-ables it temporarily and somehow encapsulates the affiliate's link so that it cannot be over-written, perhaps by way of an activex control or a java file.

    I'd go for *permanently* disabling the code re-direction part, so as not to cause 'property damage'.

    Can you imagine the Morpheus reaction to angry users wanting to know where 'their rebates' are?!


    I

  17. #17
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I,

    Anything more than $5K in losses is a federal crime for the coder and cohorts.

    Haiko

  18. #18
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Anything more than $5K in losses is a federal crime for the coder and cohorts.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That's what I was trying to get across when all this started yesterday. All questions of ethics aside, it's not worth courting felony charges.

    [ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: eaglefire ]

  19. #19
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    Vicki,

    You have to specify what you lost and in this case you can estimate it.

    But you do not have to prove it specicially, but you do have to show what you might call a ball park figure.

    However if you can prove FRAUD, rico anything that has a criminal taint to it, you can ask for punitive damages - and they can be any amount the jury wants to give you.

    If we go to trial, and I win, I have set it up so I could get well over a billion because my suit is not class action but it has a class action component on how any damages are dispursed.

    And for all you rocket scientists out there, if you small claims for the max, all you need to prove how much you got screwed is
    to show the amounts you made before Morpheus joined a merchant program and amounts after. Multiply that by x number of months and you got a number.

    Once you file you can supeona their records.
    You do that and you are golden and they are not.

    Now here's what they will do if you supeona the records - they will simply pay you the max you ask for in the court and go home.

    Why, because it will cost them more than what you will get to provide the records and once youhave the records you can make them public by entering them into evidence.

    And right before your case actually goes before the judge they will make you a settlement offer.

    The have been screwing you, so use the law to screw them.

    We have a ton more evidence than Erin Brockivtch had and she helped win close to a billion.

    So go get the forms to file a suit and when I file my small claims deal as an individual, I'll post the statement of my complaint and you can all copy it and plug in your specifics.

    The NetBiz complaint and all will be available online as soon as it gets served on the plantiffs.

    You can copy that and use that too, if you want to deal with it on that scale.

  20. #20
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    Haiko buddy...hang in there dude...we shall overcome.

    First, it's good the merchants and the adnetworks are incohoots. Makes for an easier case to prove.

    Second, it allows you to attack from different directions - attack the adnetworks one by one and force them to sue their merchants because the merchants aren't going to provide them the data they need to defend themselves.

    Attack the merchants once you get the adnetwork data.

    Attack the scumware on grounds of theft, invasion of privacy and get their records of what they received from the merchants and the adnetworks...now simply match them up.

    Result - FRAUD IN SPADES HARD COPY.

    Attack the merchants individually. Attack the adnetworks individually, Attack Morpheus and Scumware people individually.

    Now they have to deal individually in court but they need each other to defend themselves.

    And if one loses they all lose, because then we have precednet to use on the other cases, so they are really up the creek without a paddle depending on how well they can orchestrate a myriad of defenses.

    We are not filing ONE lawsuit, but 6 to start
    and we can add 'does 1 thru 1,000' at will.

    Now if we can get our ABW people to work from the bottom up (small claims) and you and I work it from the top down (superior court), we grind them between the millstones of torts,potential criminal action and huge legal fees.

    Then we can use every small claim victory as evidence and any criminal complaint as fuek and use PR to keep the pressure on.

    Eventually, the simple fact of the constant publicity will allow the issue start to get legs and take on a life of it's own.

    Once that happens we are golden - because everyone who is a webmaster will KNOW WE ARE FIGHTING FOR THEM and we can mold them all together in a giant HONEST NETWORK.

    We end up with all the webmasters and all the traffic - merchants can do whatever they want. Without traffic they are an on event.

    That's part of the plan.

  21. #21
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    >Anything more than $5K in losses is a federal crime for the coder and cohorts.

    There are plenty of people here not under federal jurisdiction.


    I

  22. #22
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    >>>>>>>>
    And for all you rocket scientists out there, if you small claims for the max, all you need to prove how much you got screwed is
    to show the amounts you made before Morpheus joined a merchant program and amounts after.
    >>>>>>>>>>

    This is known as "jailhouse logic"

    Sure, go to a court of law and say to the judge "I made $100/day before morpheus and $50/day after Morpheus." Therefore Morpheus is the cause of my decline and it's illegal.

    When the judges gets done laughing (theoretically of course, because this will never get that far) he will actually make you PROVE you story.

    BTW: My restaurant used to make $500/day until McDonald's introduced Mozzerella sticks. Now I make $400/day. I'm suing McDonald's.

    This entire thread is a collasal waste of bandwith. Let's all post in 3 months and see how much of Fred's "billion" he's collected so far.

  23. #23
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>BTW: My restaurant used to make $500/day until McDonald's introduced Mozzerella sticks. Now I make $400/day. I'm suing McDonald's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is not a good analogy for what's happening. A more accurate parallel would be another restaurant tampering with your cash register so that money from *your* sales of mozzarella sticks to *your* customers ended up in their bank account.

  24. #24
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    Well I don't live in the USA, so I'm not going to sue.

    I've personally done a lot, contacting merchants, I emailed about 12 news departments, and I'm still putting up scripts up on the site.

    I at no time expect some one to do a lawsuit, and benefit from it. I do though hope that some one will make a script for webmasters to protect themselves. And that is all I hope for.

  25. #25
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A more accurate parallel would be another restaurant tampering with your cash register so that money from *your* sales of mozzarella sticks to *your* customers ended up in their bank account. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Exactly. Or when your cashier goes to collect the money, a McDonald's cashier snatches it out of your cashier's hand as soon as it lands [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] Any affiliate with Morpheus on his or her system knows that this is exacly what happens and has seen and documented it.

    And there is proof of this process that even a non-technical judge can understand [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    [ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: eaglefire ]

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