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  1. #1
    15 years and counting
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    Zales and Second Bite
    Zales, one of your merchants uses Second Bite to send emails.
    You don't respect the agreement (30 day return cookie) with your affiliates:
    "Earn up to 6% commissions with no cap on how much you can earn and based on a long 30 day return cookie"

    What's the position of LinkShare regarding Second Bite?
    http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=81953

    What's the meaning of:
    "LinkShare PartnerMaker is a highly structured, intimate networking forum where affiliates and merchants form winning and profitable partnerships for the year ahead."
    http://www.linkshare.com/summit/peop...tnermaker.html
    Do you mind to tell us what was doing Second Bite at your executive retreat in San Francisco Jan 2006. Why are they attending also your next affiliate meeting?

  2. #2
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    Zeus:

    My name is John Perdoni, I am the Affiliate Marketing Specialist for the Zales Affiliate Program. I am currently speaking with Zales and Second Bite to discuss this issue and expect to have a response soon. If you could contact me at perdonij@gsicommerce.com, I would be happy to discuss this information with you further. Thank you.

  3. #3
    ABW Ambassador
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    From their privacy policy.

    For those individuals who visit our site but do not make a purchase, we collect and store IP ("Internet Protocol") addresses during the visit. No individualized information is collected, and the IP address is not traced to a particular individual. Similarly, we collect information, using that IP address, about the navigational or browsing activities of our visitors. Again, that information is not tied to any name or other personally identifying information but is used solely to provide generalized demographic data, such as what geographic areas our visitors are from and visitor browsing patterns. For those who make a purchase on Zales.com, in order to fulfill the order, we collect and store your name, address, shipping information, e-mail address, telephone number, purchase data, and billing information.

    [...]

    We currently send e-mails only to those Zales.com customers who are interested in receiving information about our products and services.
    I filed a complaint with the FTC about misleading privacy policy and can-spam violation. I would suggest everyone do the same.

    I would be happy to discuss this information with you further - in public.


    Thank you!

    Chet

  4. #4
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    John,
    It's not a problem between me and Zales or me and Second Bite, it's a problem between all the affiliates, the networks, the merchants and Second Bite so we can keep the subject public.
    If you need more information you can read these threads:
    http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=81953
    http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=82049
    http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=82056

    Not related directly to Zales but worth reading:
    http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=81832 Taylor Gifts
    http://forum.abestweb.com/showthread.php?t=82036 CosmeticMall

    For deeper information, listen to this podcast from Chad Herman SecondBite
    http://www.practicalecommerce.com/po...ChadHerman.mp3

    And have a look at thecoreginsider.com
    http://www.thecoreginsider.com/index...nt=news&nid=20
    "SecondBite, used by major retailers like Zales, sends a follow up email to consumers who abandon shopping carts after they enter their email address. The email can be customized based on the clients requests, and always includes a link back to the exact spot where the consumer abandoned. In addition these emails can include coupons or discounts to further encourage return to the shopping cart. So does it work? SecondBites clients see a 3 6% increase in monthly sales from their service. At first I thought this technology MUST be expensive but its not! There are no set up fees and clients pay ONLY when abandoned customers convert through SecondBites efforts kind of like an affiliate."

  5. #5
    Merchant & ABW Ambassador
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    i don't agree with what most merchants are doing with second bite via commission basis but if it was a pay per performance and still pay affiliates, that would work better. privacy issue is also a biggie.

    that being said, I believe that a merchant should have the opportunity to make good on things and if they are doing something wrong, they should have a period to fix it.

  6. #6
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb
    are there any secondbite-using merchants that we haven't mentioned here, yet?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by FairFieldGetaway-EricEwe
    i don't agree with what most merchants are doing with second bite via commission basis but if it was a pay per performance and still pay affiliates, that would work better. privacy issue is also a biggie.

    that being said, I believe that a merchant should have the opportunity to make good on things and if they are doing something wrong, they should have a period to fix it.
    No. this is bullshit and this bullshit has to end. I am sick of treating merchants, networks and ams like children. Ahhh.... little bad baby boy didn't know pooping in the living room carpet was bad, ahhh, i am sure you are so sorry, we'll just clean this up and forget it never happened.

    No.

    Sorry I expect adults to be responsible for their actions and think before they do stupid crap like this. But instead of that, it is dollar signs going off, screw everyone else - it is the stupidity of greed. Everything that they can get away with until they are caught, then time to play stupid.

    Chet

  8. #8
    Merchant & ABW Ambassador
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    Quote Originally Posted by chetf
    No. this is bullshit and this bullshit has to end. I am sick of treating merchants, networks and ams like children. Ahhh.... little bad baby boy didn't know pooping in the living room carpet was bad, ahhh, i am sure you are so sorry, we'll just clean this up and forget it never happened.

    No.

    Sorry I expect adults to be responsible for their actions and think before they do stupid crap like this. But instead of that, it is dollar signs going off, screw everyone else - it is the stupidity of greed. Everything that they can get away with until they are caught, then time to play stupid.

    Chet
    point well taken

    where can i find info bout a company on FTC?
    wanna see if companies like upromise, 2nd bite, etc are have any outstanding questionable issues

  9. #9
    Internet Cowboy
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    I think this one will take care of itself. After a few merchants get their name smeared in the news for letting someone flagrantly violate their privacy policy only if they do not complete the sale, the others will back off. It is the part about only doing it if they do not complete the sale that will cause the problems.

    Imagine a privacy policy that reads:
    ....If you do not make a purchase after adding item(s) to your cart, we will give your personal information to a non-vetted third party and allow them to pester you to complete the purchase....
    That's basically what it will have to say.

  10. #10
    Not that fat. ReallyBigGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herb ԿԬ
    are there any secondbite-using merchants that we haven't mentioned here, yet?
    Not sure if anyone mentioned FTD. I had placed an item in my cart yesterday and this morning, I got an email:


    Thanks for shopping with FTD.COM.

    We noticed you still have items in your shopping cart.
    Here is an offer to help you complete your purchase.

    <$5 off coupon here> with a link to: https://app.secondbitesolutions.com/...602&eid=771370
    which redirects to: http://clickserve.cc-dt.com/link/cli...00000011695074

    Click on the above offer and checkout. A savings of
    $5 will be reflected when you make your purchase.
    Items only remain saved in your Shopping Cart for 2 days. Checkout now!

  11. #11
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    {groan}

  12. #12
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    Yes, they are infested by SecondBite.
    FTD is a Performic merchant.

    I had a look at their affiliate agreement:
    Performic site: Commission Duration: 1 day
    FTD.com site: Nothing, no mention of cookie duration
    but you have: Benefit from our "Be a Hero" Campaign What's that?

    So at least they are not lying on this one, anyway your cookie is lost after the email reminder of SecondBite the next day.

    Regarding privacy:
    FTD Privacy Policy
    "In general, you can visit our Site without telling us who you are or revealing any personal information about yourself."

    "We may contract with third-party companies or persons to provide certain services including credit card processing, distribution, data management, promotional services, etc. ("Service Providers"). We provide our Service Providers with the information needed for them to perform these services."

    "We want to communicate with you only if you want to hear from us.
    We do not send unsolicited promotional email and we respect our customers' mail preferences."

    SecondBite can capture the email of their visitors.

  13. #13
    Newbie Gorfbassist's Avatar
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    In order for them to email you back, do you need to have a store account and be logged into it, or can they track your email without that? I'm just trying to do a test on this, to figure out exactly how it works.

  14. #14
    Affiliate Manager MINDsprinter's Avatar
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    I gotta ask...where do you guys draw the line on this?

    Basically, if someone starts an order in my shopping cart, enters their email address, and presses a submit button, and then abandons the cart, am I allowed to send them ONE email reminding them to complete the sale??

    (FYI: this would be done inhouse, not through SecondBite, so affiliate cookies wouldn't be touched and they would still get credit for the sale)

    Obviously, our privacy policy would be updated to reflect this, and sending out more than one reminder email feels like spam, but I do feel that merchants should get another crack at abandoned carts, especially if an email address is entered and a submit button is pressed.

    If this doesn't feel ethical to you then what would I need to add to make it better? A little not saying you may receive one and only one email from us if you enter your info in this field? An opt out checkbox?

    I just would love to know where the line is...
    Jason Rosenbaum
    Affiliate Manager
    MINDsprinting

  15. #15
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    For me it is the act of submitting the email address, once they do that they have made some action that showed they had enough faith in your company to give you that piece of information. They made the choice, not some spamming 3rd party.

    Chet

  16. #16
    Affiliate Manager MINDsprinter's Avatar
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    That's how I feel chetf.

    Anyone else?
    Jason Rosenbaum
    Affiliate Manager
    MINDsprinting

  17. #17
    Not that fat. ReallyBigGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorfbassist
    In order for them to email you back, do you need to have a store account and be logged into it, or can they track your email without that? I'm just trying to do a test on this, to figure out exactly how it works.
    For my specifics on FTD.
    I hadn't even created the account, but I see it created one for me, because I had it email me the password.
    I got to the point where I'd enter the credit card, and decided not to order because I got a better deal at giftbaskets.com.
    I started the order about 3pm EST, and their second bite email arrived at 11:30pm EST.

    The email from them was through their novator.com email address (which Is an ftd thing)

    -----
    Jason, I like your idea of an in-house system. Heck, someone should create some universal system so that people could plug into their own store websites easily, and then we wouldn't need to deal with any 3rd party taking our commissions.

  18. #18
    Affiliate Manager MINDsprinter's Avatar
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    Well, the inhouse system has been an idea floating around here for a while. We are just starting to put it into action. It shouldn't be that big of a programming job really, you just need to create a database of emails when someone enters it in on our site (the 1st step of our registration process) and then if the customer abandons the cart (the email will be deleted from the database if they complete the order) we send them a follow up email with a coupon say 1 day later...

    But is this thing ethical? It seems like the answer is yes...
    Jason Rosenbaum
    Affiliate Manager
    MINDsprinting

  19. #19
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    "That's how I feel chetf.

    Anyone else?"

    Same thing. Like I said earlier, the submit button is there for a reason. If you're capturing email addresses without a shopper hitting submit, that's a problem. I think it's also a problem you're farming this out to an affiliate.

  20. #20
    Not that fat. ReallyBigGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDsprinter

    But is this thing ethical? It seems like the answer is yes...
    I think its okay. as long as your privacy policy says so. You could even put a disclaimer on the page where they enter the email to say "if you don't complete your order, we will send a single reminder email in xx days. if you don't wish to recieve this, check here." or something similar.

    but like others said.. farming it out to an affiliate is wrong...

  21. #21
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Basically once infested with SecondBite or MetaRewards the AM's managing the merchant group say, screw the other affiliates, I'll just activate my other merchnats.. Therefore The GSI group (NETorious for BHO's and e-mail spammers) just signup ALL their merchants with the justifiable conversion stats. I pulled GSI merchants years ago for bad practices and faulty reporting via their common ecatalog server re-directs and datamining. Affiliate network tracking was secondary on their adjenda. So GSI testing is up to you other guys and Asif at GoldenCan as He fell for them from day one..

    The other reporting factor is all GSI stores use Google Checkout too.
    Webmaster's... Mike and Charlie

    "What have you done today to put real value into a referral click...from a shoppers viewpoint!"

  22. #22
    Affiliate Manager MINDsprinter's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses everyone! I think we are going ahead with this. Hopefully it will up conversions, not piss off customers, and get some more affiliate commissions paid.
    Jason Rosenbaum
    Affiliate Manager
    MINDsprinting

  23. #23
    notary sojac Herb ԿԬ's Avatar
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    Thumbs down
    so FTD or their agent fired off an email before the cookie expired, anyway? Dirty Pool.

  24. #24
    Not that fat. ReallyBigGuy's Avatar
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    Okay, now I didn't act on that second bite email, and at 2:23 EST, I got an email from FTD.com which includes a 15% off coupon. doesn't look like an affiliate link, since it just goes to:
    http://www.ftd.com/disc15/catalog/pr...07rsftdfeature

  25. #25
    Newbie Gorfbassist's Avatar
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    I tried this with both FTD and Zales without setting up an account first and have not received any sort of email from them yet. I guess I will try and go a bit further into the checkout before the cancel and see what happens.

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