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  1. #1
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    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    Well, at least they didn't quote Schwegman as saying, "I'm in hell." , lolololol......

    I Will FOCUS On My Goal

  3. #3
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    The November 7th meeting will probably just end in a blanket statement that advertising on web sites is finished.

    The article did a horrible job defining spyware. Spyware is any piece of equipment that monitors your activity, and sends info back to the hosts for analysis. Alex.com is spyware. Anything that spies is Spyware.

    The unforgiveable activity is parasiteware. That is activity that changes a URL or pops up in the middle of a user's shopping session with the intent of changing their activity.

    Adware is software that is paid in full or part by carrying ads. Not bad in itself, except when it is designed to feed off information posted on the Internet by other sites.

    Protophoto - Short Stories

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    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    The Clickz folks are tied in completely with the online Advertising industry and therefore they hide or slant articles in favor of their sponsors.

    No need for us to get lawyers to protect our commissions from theftware and spyware applications regardless of how much perfume you put on the commission pigs. The big legal guns already have the perps and their cohorts in their sites. First comes the closing down of the spammers and the merchant's fined who monitize the Opt-out and UCE e-mail marketers. Next comes the P2P networks getting lunched and closed down for willfully enabling Child porn file sharing and copywrite music theft. That also will direct the Attorney Generals to look at who monitizes these P2P rascals with spyware amd Adarez programs.

    How do the big legal guns work? Slow and sure! The below named Attorney General and his gift child DA of NYC got $120 million fine from Meryl Lunch and more from shady analysts ..drained the bank account of spammer Monsterhut and is fixing to hurt the big Duper e-mail marketers too. They mean to carve a name for themselves over the plague the internet con-men, spammers and Advertising industry's approach to hijacking the tax paying consumers systems.

    John Soat -Informationweek
    http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20020830S0038

    "DoubleClick, the embattled Web marketer, last week settled the last major legal action against it, a 30-month investigation by 10 states, led by the New York Attorney General's Office. DoubleClick promised to give consumers more information about how and where it collects and shares online data and agreed to pay the states $450,000 to cover investigative costs and consumer education. The agreement "will not change the services DoubleClick performs for its clients," the company said in a statement. DoubleClick (which has a business relationship with InformationWeek) had already agreed to disclosure rules and paid $1.8 million in May to settle a similar Federal Trade Commission lawsuit. "DoubleClick is to be commended for its cooperation in setting an industry standard for promoting consumer privacy in the data collection and tracking taking place across networked Web sites," New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer said. Still, privacy advocates weren't satisfied. Jason Catlett, president of Junkbusters, says the settlement includes significant concessions from DoubleClick in the area of disclosure but comes up short in addressing how the marketer collects data."


    Remember that name ..Elliot Spitzer ..before he's done the networks -merchants and BHO "Affiliate Application" providers will know they can't circumvent existing laws just because the thievery and fraud happens online in the Wild Wild West. AOL -Earthlink and MSN have heard the big gun legal footsteps loud and clear and are immediately closing down all gorrila Ad-nausium tactics from Pop-ups to shopping bars. They also wonder when these so called reward/incent parasites will start paying their endusers the promised for kidnapping their systems to divert their shopping to their own merchant pool.

    WebMaster Mike

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    Actually that article cleared up a long standing misnomer. A misconception that has been perpetuated since the days of Conducent and Radiate, the first two companies to really introduce advertising into software packages back in 98-1999 I think. Conducent and Radiate both started gathering information without consent, and act that caused a lot of backlash among programmers who wanted to support their applications and consumers. Both companies are now defunct primiarly ravaged from the drop in the value of untargetd CPM advertising.

    True spyware logs keyboard activity and reports that back to a "spy" or interloper to borrow from Webmaster Mike's terminology. These programs are sold as child monitors, employee watchers, activity monitors, or they are simply repackaged trojans. Often anti-virus programs miss them because they do not always behave as true trojans. Spyware is a REAL security threat, adware is usually not. By calling adware spyware you dilute the alarm that consumers should feel with true spy software.

    Adware that logs surfing activity WITHOUT permission is pseudo-spyware sometimes referred to as malware. Programs that intercept keystrokes or system activity without permission would fall under spyware. Spyware is not illegal in the U.S., but it is in parts of Europe.

    Is Alexa true spyware? not really since it *openly tells users* they are analyzing surfing habits. The same for some installations of the Google Toolbar or the Netsetter service from ComScore. This is made very clear in their respective EULAs.

    I do not believe that Top Moxie or BuyersPort deploy applications that store and analyze surfing habits. Then again I haven't read their EULA lately, but I would consult it before calling someone a "spy". The proper reference would be adware.

    There are fundamental differences between all of these various applications and people need to understand the idiosyncratic behavior of each one before they start attaching labels.


    regards,
    Wayne

    Wayne Porter
    V.P. Product Development
    AffTrack LLC.
    http://www.afftrack.com
    http://www.revtrends.com
    Advanced & Automated Data Analysis for Performance Marketers.

  6. #6
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    You guys can discuss the vocabulary all you want, and try to protect consumers from the spyware too while you are at it.

    But right now all I am worried about are the programs that steal commissions from affiliates, and the networks and aff managers who use it to embezzle from the shareholders.

  7. #7
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Wayne ..what is important about the article and out of court settlement is Doubleclick was using a tame version of spyware to track consumer buying and surfing habits to feed their greedy monopolistic pocketbooks. The tamed version cost their unethical management 2.4 Million in slap of the wrist fine.

    The plug-ins to monitize Morpheus- Gator and others were specifically created to steal commisisons and truly spy on people with intent to sell off the information. Want to write an article on how the attached & hidden spyware gets through secure firewalls on merchant machines to scrap active credit card information thats sold to the Russian and Asian mob?

    Who do you think the CIA and FBI and Interpole hired to really get to the bottom of what spyware was created to do and what info gathering hooks are in there. Their top undercover ops centers are manned by hackers & programmers who were doing or fixing to do some serious prison time.

    Some of your illustrious clients just purchased warez or blackmarket S/W in their rush to market and could care less about some of it's hidden security dangers. All the developers were underground and safely offshore. They just wanted to divert affiliate and SE traffic and swap ID#'s as the sellers told them the loaded packages could do. Stupid affiliates and dumber merchant AM's would never catch on till it was too late to to keep the darkside from infesting the networks.

    If you want to accomplish something to awaken the merchants and networks invite someone from the FBI cybercrimes unit and the Owner of Lavasoft Ad-Aware to the meeting to discuss the fine points.

    WebMaster Mike

    [This message was edited by EcomCity.com on October 18, 2002 at 06:57 PM.]

  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador affiliatemakeover's Avatar
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    webmaster mike said,

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Clickz folks are tied in completely with the online Advertising industry and therefore they hide or slant articles in favor of their sponsors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Mike, we've spoken off line, and we agree I think on affiliate issues in general. However, I can tell you that never once has a clickz editor changed or edited any of my columns because I went against one of their advertisers, whatever, etc...

    If you read my columns, you'll see I'm very pro-affiliate, and have not left any punches unthrown towards big business.

    In other words, what you're seeing is Declan's opinion. They don't pay us to write what they want, they pay us to write what we want, and they have never questioned me at least.

    Just wanted to clear that up.

    Jim

  9. #9
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    Mike,

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The plug-ins to monitize Morpheus- Gator and others were specifically created to steal commisisons and truly spy on people with intent to sell off the information. Want to write an article on how the attached & hidden spyware gets through secure firewalls on merchant machines to scrap active credit card information thats sold to the Russian and Asian mob?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Once again Mike, for your own good, you should really not state things on a public board unless you can provide definitive and irrevocable proof of this in a court of law. It could be construed as libel and you are putting yourself at legal risk.

    best,
    Wayne

  10. #10
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Jim I read your articles and even Mr. Dunns for over 2 years. A wealth of information there if the informed reader balances out viewpoints with other information sources. Often, for me anyway, what isn't said by an informed editorial writer at Clickz points out their slant. I've download and even posted here some article links by Dunclan.

    To me on first read, and the content didn't deserve a second look, was an article justifying the online Ad Industries use of hidden monitoring software to increase their fees to advertisers for some pseudo targeting of Ads. The timing of my reading this came as I read 7 other articles showing legal action and huge corporate and politician lobbying to rid the consumers of these type of invasive practices.

    My criticism was directed at Clickz mgmt choosing to ignor that gorrilla advertising tactics are no longer to be condoned, regardless of rational, by the general web public at large. Whitewashing spyware on the same day that the Doubleclick gets a bloodied nose on this issue was poor timing. Add in this weeks public announcements regarding AOL and other portals cleaning house on all the Popup -popunders and shopping bar 3rd party interlopers ticking off their community and see my viewpoint.

    The advertising industry burned through billions of dollars of those VC funded and IPO fueled .com bombs giving birth to Clickz. The Ad pushers had no conscience then nor now. That industry continues to not be held accountable for their stupid moves to push all internet content into a small % of screen space. The root source of all evils perpretrated on the affiliate community can be traced to the advertising industry. They created banner blindness because no one was held accountable to the consumer to put value into a click.

    Anyone who could bypass the traffic generating hurdles of normal website owners and just jump on the commission possibilities of someone elses targeting efforts was immediately given preferred account status on the networks. These guys only used spywarez as a second income to feed the list brokers, telemarketers and spammers. They saw how for years the advertising merchants duped affiliates into billion of impressions and millions of branding clicks for pennies on a Ad dollar.

    The Dupers and parasites want nothing to do with these branding campaigns and devised a slick scheme to milk the traffic muzzled affiliates and click crazed merchants at the same time. They attacked at the point of sale by trying to monitize every known way to a merchants web site. To achieve this end they loaded any type of spyware and adware buried in some Freebee or incent/reward with a trojan horse call home backdoor. Their only goal was to make sure they got the last cookie set on every trasaction placed on the internet...period.

    When the captive users weren't buying they were selling off their surfing habbits and privacy information to multiple bidders. Maybe a better article for you or Mr Dunn to write about would be how the Ad Industry mindset has ruined the affiliate pay-per-performance industry from the start rather than po-pooing spyware semantics. The sooner the sales divisions take over the managing the affiliate managers the sooner this industry will mature. Then some real value will be put into clciks. The only cure for the online Ad industry will come when they are muzzled by slimball consumer advocate attornies under a pile of lawsuits.

    Give us back the commissions we earned, if not diverted by traffic hijackers, over the last year and we'd have shown the merchants a huge increase in targeted buyers. LOL ..a huge part of the sales increases they show come from paying commissions on their own non-commissionable links..

    WebMaster Mike

    [This message was edited by EcomCity.com on October 18, 2002 at 10:34 PM.]

  11. #11
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ... Ad Industry mindset has ruined the affiliate pay-per-performance industry from the start rather than po-pooing spyware semantics <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Way off base Mike. The performance ad industry is strong and continues to show massive growth. Where do you get these ideas?

    -wayne

  12. #12
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    By WebMaster Mike

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Want to write an article on how the attached & hidden spyware gets through secure firewalls on merchant machines to scrap active credit card information thats sold to the Russian and Asian mob?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Why, when I read this do I continually hear a background voice-over by Rod Serling?

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  13. #13
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    Somehow I can picture Mike sitting up late, drinking too much, watching re-runs of the Twilight Zone then, during commercials, running to the community boards to hash out theories about interlopers. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    -wayne

    PS: All in jest Mike...well mostly in jest.

  14. #14
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    The full quote played to the Rod Sterling background music:

    "When the captive users weren't buying they were selling off their surfing habbits and privacy information to multiple bidders. Maybe a better article for you or Mr Dunn to write about would be how the Ad Industry mindset has ruined the affiliate pay-per-performance industry from the start rather than po-pooing spyware semantics. The sooner the sales divisions take over the managing the affiliate managers the sooner this industry will mature. Then some real value will be put into clicks."

    To your mindset, Wayne, the selling off of surfing habits and privacy information or anything sellable when gathered by monitoring software is probably smart business.

    The Ad Industry mindset in the height of the .com bubble was all pervasive to the budding affiliate industry execs. They just copied the Ad Industries banner server technology ( ala Doubleclick) and added in a sales reporting hook to offer a pay for action commission to those who couldn't quality for a CPM deal. They enticed merchants based upon lowering their advertising costs and negating all risks. They then mass recruited affiliates who were treated like cannon fodder for years.

    Like the Ad industry using pseudo spyware to increase their fees to advertisers under the guise of targeting Ads, the networks gathers every impression, click and action for their merchant pool to raise their fees and justify the costs. Show me a network who publishes their actual network wide stats for merchants or verticle markets. These are monitized somewhere and I bet you and Obstinatedon know who's paying for the information.

    The networks from the start, like the Ad Industry, set themselves up to NEVER guaranty to any party ANY RESULTS based upon their partners efforts or their own. Like the Ad Industry the affiliates never got paid til the networks got paid. Like the Ad Industry they charge upfront fees for all services and a monthly minimum charge plus bandwidth usage fees.

    Are you starting to see the similarities? Only the actions of the individual affiliates drove this model into a viable industry. The merchants in the first few years didn't even understand what a conversion ratio was ..let alone try and make it a recruiting tool.

    Now go and try and try to get some real writer to uncover the whole story because no one is willing to pay me for writing about this for years. With all of Waynes insider information I'd never expect him to ever put up a website to try and make a buck on network merchant sales. Would he care to write about why he'd rather smartly sit on the sidelines selling analyst tools.

    Hint to you all. Always look at the end of my posts for the meat of the rant. It usually demands no coment.

    "The sooner the sales divisions take over the managing the affiliate managers the sooner this industry will mature. Then some real value will be put into clicks."

    WebMaster Mike

  15. #15
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To your mindset, Wayne, the selling off of surfing habits and privacy information or anything sellable when gathered by monitoring software is probably smart business.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That goes to show really how little you know in general and about me Mike. I am a big privacy advocate and those who know me will vouch for that.


    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Show me a network who publishes their actual network wide stats for merchants or verticle markets. These are monitized somewhere and I bet you and Obstinatedon know who's paying for the information.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I am all for networks and merchants being forward with metrics. As for Don and I knowing. Go back to your conspiracy theories Mike...of course Don could be holding out on you. Actually the old man probably is.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Are you starting to see the similarities? Only the actions of the individual affiliates drove this model into a viable industry. The merchants in the first few years didn't even understand what a conversion ratio was ..let alone try and make it a recruiting tool. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I will concede that merchants have gotten a lot more educated, but individual affiliates are not the powering force behind the industry. That is what some would have you believe. Large sites and a few mid-tier affiliates and SEO guys bolster the industry. I have no doubt it. Take them away you don't have a lot.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Hint to you all. Always look at the end of my posts for the meat of the rant. It usually demands no coment.

    "The sooner the sales divisions take over the managing the affiliate managers the sooner this industry will mature. Then some real value will be put into clicks."
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I don't even know why I read them at all. Some sort of addication to paranoid rants. Maybe you should try alt.paranoid

    I would like to see MORE direct marketers running affiliate programs Mike, so I can agree with you there (shudder). Actually I would like to see more skilled affiliate managers and all programs with them. Alas, that isn't always the case.

    -wayne

    Wayne Porter
    V.P. Product Development
    AffTrack LLC.
    http://www.afftrack.com
    http://www.revtrends.com
    Advanced & Automated Data Analysis for Performance Marketers.

  16. #16
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    There's a difference between aggressive and illegal. Overstock chooses to work with Morpheus, but not WhenU or Gator because of their tactics. It's a choice. Consumers have a choice, merchants have a choice, advertisers have a choice, and adware has a choice of how to do business. Though adware's tactics are debatable, their impact is undeniable and growing.



    Shawn works with Morpheus....

  17. #17
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> a huge part of the sales increases they show come from paying commissions on their own non-commissionable links..
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I believe this is really them meat of the matter. Fighting this is not something that can be accomplished thru the affiliate managers and networks or consultants (they are scoring big bonuses with the skewed numbers). Instead it will need to be taken to the shareholders.

    OK, you can go on with your diarhea about who cares more about user privacy (by the way, the spyware guys are always advocating user privacy).

  18. #18
    ABW Ambassador cusimano's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>from the article:
    It's a choice. Consumers have a choice, merchants have a choice, advertisers have a choice, and adware has a choice of how to do business.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What about the publishers (affiliates). Do they have a choice?

    I would like webmasters to have the choice of being able to reject any visitor who visits the webmaster's site where it has been detected that the visitor has certain BHO's or plugins etc installed. For example, it should be possible to establish a standard whereby these extra BHO's and plugin programs have a marker system that can be detected by a website when a user visits the website -- this would be similar in concept to the various parasite/scumware detectors currently available except it would be more standarized.

    I'm all in favour of free competition. However, in the case where the operation of one of these product is in any way directly or indirectly dependent upon the content of an affiliate's website then the affiliate should have a choice whether they want to let the particular visitor into their website or to reject them.

    Yours truly,
    Cusimano.Com Corporation
    per: David Cusimano

  19. #19
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cusimano:
    I'm all in favour of free competition. However, in the case where the operation of one of these product is in any way directly or indirectly dependent upon the content of an affiliate's website then the affiliate should have a choice whether they want to let the particular visitor into their website or to reject them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You said it David! Like when Microsoft was going to do something and everyone objected we were given a code to put in our meta tags to prevent Microsoft from doing the nasties.

    We pay for our hosting, bandwidth, server space and spend hours on making pages, tweaking them to get good search engine listings.

    Why should the others be in control of whether or not we get credit for the sale be it the consumer or parasites when the sale is being placed as a result of our work. If they want to place an order through the bho or plugin then go to their website and search for the item!

    Heidi
    Fit2a-t: The Center of the T-shirt Universe!

  20. #20
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    The problem is Heidi many consumers DO want to place an order through a software technology because of the incentive. That is the crux of the argument.

    -wayne

    Wayne Porter
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  21. #21
    pph Expert! Gordon's Avatar
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    Wayne why can you not see?, We have nothing against the customers going where they want to buy something, but these people do not even have a website to attract their own customers, nor do they even advertise the products they are selling. They pure and simply rely on us affiliates to do the neccessary advertising then they steal our customers. There is no other way to put it, they are plain and bloody simply a bunch of thieves. No matter what nice big smooth sounding words you can come up with they are bloody thieves period.

    Travel safe
    Gordon
    YouTrek

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    Gordon,

    I see your point. I understand it, I just disagree with parts of it. Some things they do I think is unfair and I think that will stop.


    But the browser and the desktop are not sancrosant space. Users can and will install whatever they want and web publishers have little control over that- at least for now. I am sure control is coming.

    To me the answer is simple:

    1) If an affiliate thinks a merchant is wrong for working these applications they should DROP the relationship immediately.

    2) If an affiliate thinks a network supports these applications, they should cease doing business with the network. Right now!

    3)If a merchant thinks working with these applicatins is harmful, they should cease rightway or work with the ones they have tolerance too.


    4) If the affiliate feels they are being stolen from then the need to FILE SUIT against the party they feel are thieves. This is the only way they are going to collect damages and that is IF a judge finds in their favor- which I doubt.

    5) Wait for the week after the meeting when the network announces their results and see if the end result is a fair compromise. If it is then it is business as usual or repeat the above.



    The courses of action are pretty clear. Even if the networks banned software applications completely (which I dont think they will- only govern them more closely) these softwares will still do business with advertisers direct.

    You will never convinced all merchants to drop them, as a matter of fact I think the majority of them will continue working with them in some form.

    Bottom line is that while affiliates may influence relationships, they do not control relationships. The only way to me to show you are serious, and dead serious, about your convictions is to enact harsh and powerful measures by terminating offending relationships.

    We control what we do. What is your course of action?

    -wayne


    So to me the action is clear. If you have deep-felt convictions then your actions should mimi

    Wayne Porter
    V.P. Product Development
    AffTrack LLC.
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    http://www.revtrends.com
    Advanced & Automated Data Analysis for Performance Marketers.

  23. #23
    pph Expert! Gordon's Avatar
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    I apreciate your reply Wayne. I gotta go bed now.
    night all.

    Travel safe
    Gordon
    YouTrek

  24. #24
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wayne Porter- AffTrack:
    The problem is Heidi many consumers DO want to place an order through a software technology because of the incentive. That is the crux of the argument.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Many consumers also want free music over the internet - that doesn't make it right or make it a sound business model.

    There is nothing wrong with software technology that facilitates commerce over the internet - I'm all for that. However, where is the incentive for webmasters/publishers in the current equation?

    If a software technology's business model relies upon a webmaster to keep their affiliate site going, such reliance represents a serious weak point in the business model of the software technology. It is naive for any of these companies to assume that webmasters will simply go along with the current model employed by many of these software technologies.

    There is a simple economic equation at play that some merchants and 3rd party companies are not paying close attention to: if running an affiliate based website is not an economically viable venture for a webmaster, the webmaster will simply close their site. If a sufficient number of webmasters stop promoting a particular merchant because it is no longer financially viable to continue then eventually it is going to have an impact upon the merchant -- and at such time the software technology is going to fail from the merchant's perspective, not to mention an alienation of the merchant's former affiliate base.

    Yours truly,
    Cusimano.Com Corporation

    per: David Cusimano

  25. #25
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wayne Porter- AffTrack:
    The problem is Heidi many consumers DO want to place an order through a software technology because of the incentive. That is the crux of the argument.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If that is the crux of the matter, than the solution is for merchants (maybe with their networks, to get together and create a greenstamp type of incentive product that works above the software, and cut the parasites out of the loop.

    Protophoto - Short Stories

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