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  1. #1
    Member geoffmarcy's Avatar
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    America: Freedom to Fascism...
    Wow,

    I'm not American, but I just finished watching Aaron Russo's recent film called America: Freedom to Fascism and I'm blown away by what he has exposed about the Federal Reserve System in the United States. This documentary covers many other subjects including the IRS, income tax (and why you are not legally required to file a 1040), electronic voting machine rigging, America becoming a police state, and the war on terror being used as a war on freedom.

    You can watch it FREE online here through Google Video:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...30277175242198

    I would love to hear American perspectives on this. And if after viewing this, are you in support of his views? Would you consider not filing a 1040?

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  2. #2
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Numerous court decisions have shown that you'll get in severe trouble by buying into claims like these.

    Here's a detailed rebuttal.
    Michael Coley
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  3. #3
    Classic Rocker Mack's Avatar
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    I watched the first few minutes and heard the spin. That's all it is, spin. Someone distorting the facts. One of the many freedoms in America is the freedom to become a conspiracy theorist and post videos on google.

    The Federal Reserve was established to stabilize and standardize our currency and it worked well. I don't believe it is the root of all evil in the US. Many people have claimed that income tax is temporary or unconstitutional. Really? You would think that the number of times Americans go to court over taxes someone would have figured it out by now.

    Our country is only 231 years old. On a global scale and compared to some other nations or governments, we are still new and young. Some call it an experiment. It may not be perfect, it may have its flaws, we have made mistakes, but I'm glad to be here and I pay my taxes.

  4. #4
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    Watched a few minutes of video. Baloney.

    See what they were driving back then?

    See the dusty roads?

    See the standard of living?

    How many millionaires were there anyway? Three?

    2 cents.

  5. #5
    Internet Cowboy
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    I pay lots of taxes as do all of us. But I drive on nice roads and generally don't have to worry about some thug taking something I have just because they want it.
    As anti-establishment as I may be from time to time I have to say that I don't buy in to Michael Moore's spin either.
    Thanks for posting that just the same, but I think overall Americans are pretty happy with things. Do we have problems? Sure we do. So does every other country.
    That being said, I think the American government's propensity for flat out wasting money is outrageous. I have never studied the spending habits of other countries so I don't know how we compare, but that is not important to me though it might make an interesting study.

  6. #6
    Full Member kea12345678's Avatar
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    Another interesting thought as tax day comes:

    About 40% of the US Budget is spent on the Military (Estimates range from 20-60%, depending on how and what you count).

  7. #7
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
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    Yea but Kea...

    Many would argue that the federal government's main purpose is to field a military. Military, issues of international relations, and to arbitrate interstate commerce.

    Woops! Little bit of the ol' Libertarian propaganda slipped out there

  8. #8
    Full Member kea12345678's Avatar
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    In contrast, the UK, which spend the second most on the Military, after the US, spends only 5% of its budget on Military affairs.

    I consider myself a libertarian, I guess it depends on what kind of freedom you want. I love to go to London, clean streets, good public transporation, low crime rates, no homeless, free heath care.

    I guess you get what you pay for.

  9. #9
    Resident Genius and Staunch Capitalist Leader's Avatar
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    Bah

    "Free" stuff paid for by the Robin-Hood brand of stealing (euphemistically called "wealth redistribution")...that's socialism, and the price of stuff has nothing to do with liberty, anyway!

    I guess you get what you pay for.
    I'll go ahead and NOT pay for the government to F with my ability to travel by car at reasonable prices, NOT pay for spycams everywhere, NOT pay for having the government decide whether or when I can have an operation, NOT pay for spurious royals...

  10. #10
    Beachy Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kea12345678
    Another interesting thought as tax day comes: About 40% of the US Budget is spent on the Military...
    Might seem like a lot - but it just may be the reason we still speak English and enjoy the many freedoms that we do have. The Nazis tried to change that awhile back - as did the folks on the other side of the Cold War - or the other side of the Pacific just before the time when I was born.

    Just my 2-cents...'cause thats about all I have left right now. (But, not because of taxes...our daughter got married two weeks ago.)
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  11. #11
    Ride It Like You Stole It CowgirlUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kea12345678

    About 40% of the US Budget is spent on the Military (Estimates range from 20-60%, depending on how and what you count).
    And the sad thing is, out troops still don't have everything they need

    My cousin is a Stryker specialist and his GPS is mounted with duct tape. He's about to do his 3rd tour in Iraq and still doesn't have the new body armor.
    He was at the base in Mosul when the bomb went off in the mess hall, the military didn't rebuild it for months. He had to go into town to buy a hot plate and we did chef-boy-ardee can drive to send him and his men beefaroni.

    My other cousin, who was more like a brother, was killed by a roadside bomb. If he would have had better protection, he may have survived the explosion.

    I love my country and I try real hard to stay out of politics. I pay my taxes without complaining (ok, maybe without complaining ALOT) and I know our military spending isn't perfect. I don't have the answer to curb the spending either, but I also won't stop paying just to prove the government wrong. Even if it costs me another loved one, I'll still pay because I value the freedoms I have as an American.
    Be the change you want to see in the world ~ Gandhi

  12. #12
    Ride It Like You Stole It CowgirlUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beachy
    Just my 2-cents...'cause thats about all I have left right now. (But, not because of taxes...our daughter got married two weeks ago.)
    Congratulations!
    Be the change you want to see in the world ~ Gandhi

  13. #13
    Affiliate Manager Alan Hamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffmarcy
    Wow, I'm not American, but I just finished watching Aaron Russo's recent film called America: Freedom to Fascism
    If an independent film maker says it's so, then that's good enough for me!!

    M. Moore
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  14. #14
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    There is a great line in the movie "Armeggadon", just as these drillers are about to take off in a space shuttle to save the world. One turns to his boss and says, as the rocket takes off, "Hey, do you realize we are sitting on a million gallons of fuel, inside a rocket consisting of 250,000 separate parts, constructed by the lowest bidder?"

    On the one hand, our expenditures are huge. But on the other, soldiers have the right to go into battle fielding the latest in protective - and offensive - gear. I want our soldiers to survive, and to do so without being maimed or wounded.

    If I have a gripe, it is with non-military expenditures, which are hibitually filled with non essential pork, the purpose of which is usually to gain support for some unrelated project that is deemed more important, usually controversial in nature.

    A sure sign of the strength of our democracy is criticism of it - without retribution.
    Following everyone else is a GREAT way to become average.

  15. #15
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kea12345678
    Another interesting thought as tax day comes:

    About 40% of the US Budget is spent on the Military (Estimates range from 20-60%, depending on how and what you count).
    It's nowhere near 40%. You can find a detailed breakdown from 2006 here. If you count Defense, Veteran's Benefits, and Foreign Affairs, it's barely 20% of the budget. Social programs account for nearly 60%. Those who say the military budget is up 60% of the US federal budget deceptively remove social programs from the "total budget" and add payments on the national debt into the "defense" category.

    A couple other interesting points:

    1) Over 80% of taxes are paid by individuals rather than corporations.
    2) There's a $700 billion defecit between money taken in from social security and payroll taxes and money paid out in social programs. If you're looking for the reason for our deficit, that's it. Without that disparity, we would have a huge surplus.
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  16. #16
    Affiliate Manager Alan Hamilton's Avatar
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    MC wrote: It's nowhere near 40%. You can find a detailed breakdown from 2006 here. If you count Defense, Veteran's Benefits, and Foreign Affairs, it's barely 20% of the budget. Social programs account for nearly 60%. Those who say the military budget is up 60% of the US federal budget deceptively remove social programs from the "total budget" and add payments on the national debt into the "defense" category.


    Further, our defense spending as a percentage of our GNP is around 6%, which is less than any decade since WWII. Unsurprisingly, Russo, Moore et al conveniently twist reality to support theory that suits a personal agenda and stirs controversy, which in turn sells film. BUT, because we live in a free country, they have the opportunity to do that without loss of freedom. Try that in Iran, N. Korea, China, the middle east and many other countries and see how long it takes before the producer receives a government sponsored "extreme makeover."
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  17. #17
    Affiliate Manager MINDsprinter's Avatar
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    Interesting arguments here. I bet the one thing we can agree on is that it usre is nice that we have free speech to discuss such things.

    Anyway, some of the numbers quoted here seem silly to me. Of course, everyone knows you can make numbers say whatever you want them to say but hey, here's my take:

    The National Priorities Project, an admittedly left leaning organization, has estimated the cost of the Iraq war at $417 billion, or almost 1/2 a trillion dollars. (http://nationalpriorities.org/index....per&Itemid=182)

    They say their numbers are conservative:

    The numbers include military and non-military spending, such as reconstruction. Spending only includes incremental costs, additional funds that are expended due to the war. For example, soldiers' regular pay is not included, but combat pay is included. Potential future costs, such as future medical care for soldiers and veterans wounded in the war, are not included.

    This number is based on an analysis of the legislation in which Congress has allocated money for war so far and research by the Congressional Research Service which has access to Department of Defense financial reports.
    Now, I haven't thouroughly fact checked this, but reputable news outlets are reporting similar figures (MSNBC , NYTimes , even conservative Fox News ).

    Now, a quick search for America's GNP brings up a total of $10 trillion (http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/gnp.html)

    By my calculations, that makes the cost of Iraq nearly 25% of one year's GNP. Of course, Iraq has been spread out over 4 years, so Alan's 6% figure seems correct. However, all is not said and done with Iraq, as we all know. Veteran's benefits are likely to rise when wounded soldiers come home, reconstruction costs for Iraq will continue to mount for years to come, and of course we are also at war in Afghanistan, with terrorism, and with drugs (forgot that one didn't you? ).

    Of course, all this military spending fuels our economy in a lot of ways, but it still comes down to the fact that these wars are waged with taxpayer money. While it certainly would be illegal for me to pay 6% less (or whatever number you cite) in taxes, I have entertained the notion.

    Just another quick note on social programs...I feel much better knowing a greater percentage of taxpayer money is going to help Americans than to kill faceless fighters in the middle east...just saying...

    Anyway, just a personal opinion and some interesting articles I ran across.
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  18. #18
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDsprinter
    By my calculations, that makes the cost of Iraq nearly 25% of one year's GNP. Of course, Iraq has been spread out over 4 years
    Back to math class for you... $417 billion / $10 trillion is 4.17%, which is about 1% of our GNP per year.
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  19. #19
    Affiliate Manager MINDsprinter's Avatar
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    See, I was confused about that one too! Apparently the online calculator I use is confused as well. Correct MC!
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  20. #20
    ABW Ambassador JudiMoore's Avatar
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    Interesting arguments here. I bet the one thing we can agree on is that it usre is nice that we have free speech to discuss such things.

    Anyway, some of the numbers quoted here seem silly to me. Of course, everyone knows you can make numbers say whatever you want them to say
    I'll second this part of Mindsprinter's comment. Sometimes I'm not sure what I think anymore, but I'm glad I live in America so I can think it and express it and work to change it, if that's what I want.

    I also love how independant film makers and others show us where the extreme edges are, so I can stand as close to the middle as I want.

  21. #21
    Affiliate Manager MINDsprinter's Avatar
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    Right jmoore! I think it is almost essential in today's media world to get your information from a variety of news sources...and then make up your own mind!
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by adFinityJoe
    Yea but Kea...

    Many would argue that the federal government's main purpose is to field a military. Military, issues of international relations, and to arbitrate interstate commerce.

    Woops! Little bit of the ol' Libertarian propaganda slipped out there
    You forgot about coining money, regulating interstate commerce, erecting post offices and post roads, and enforcing patents and trademarks.

    But yeah, you get the idea.
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  23. #23
    Affiliate Manager Alan Hamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelColey
    Back to math class for you... $417 billion / $10 trillion is 4.17%, which is about 1% of our GNP per year.
    Correct Mr. C. But again you bore us with fact when fiction leads to more interesting conversation. Either way, political leanings often lead to a skewing of numbers to support the agenda, and agree or disagree, the beauty of it is that we are free to to do that!! So a big Yee Hah for freedom!

    ** now if I can just think of a way for 1% of the GNP to go to my family for just one measely year, I can buy Google!! (and still have lunch money for the next thousand milleniums)
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  24. #24
    What's the word? Rhia7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDsprinter
    I think it is almost essential in today's media world to get your information from a variety of news sources...and then make up your own mind!
    If we can get our news/news media from a variety of sources then we can't be under a fascist regime.

    Fascist regimes usually control the mass media under some kind of central regulation.
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  25. #25
    Full Member kea12345678's Avatar
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    Try that in Iran, N. Korea, China, the middle east and many other countries and see how long it takes before the producer receives a government sponsored "extreme makeover."
    Or, Sweden, or France, or Germany, or the UK. They all hate freedom. ;-)

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