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  1. #1
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    We are all anxiously awaiting news from Haiko -Shawn Collins and Elizabeth on the network meeting today. Anyone have some info?? They might be doing the NYC happy Hour bit or looking for someone to Bond them out of Rikers if the group got more than verbal!!

    WebMaster Mike

  2. #2
    ABW Ambassador
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    What time was the meeting supposed to end?
    Cazzie [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

  3. #3
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    LOL Mike. Let's hope that a bondsman wasn't a necessary part of the meeting. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    I think that meeting was ending around 5 or 5:30 EST. Don't know if Elisabeth will have computer access. Shawn and Haiko would have to get home I'm sure. And there could well be some hob nobbing going on afterwards.

    But don't you just hating waiting????

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  4. #4
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I got back at 6pm, winding down and will post a full report in a few, overall ... it went very well and positive!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  5. #5
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Well there goes my insider Bondman's phone number. Good to hear Haiko's getting some grub and clearing the brain cells for a recap.

    WebMaster Mike

  6. #6
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    First I, as a participant of the events, would personally, like to thank linkshare for their gracious hospitality and extra effort, it was a true pleasure. I, as I am all, I'm sure wish Stephen Messer a speedy recovery from his food poisoning (he was in the hospital today.

    The meeting went VERY well and was VERY professional! Wayne Porter, as moderator did an absolutely great job and kept many topics on topic and was highly effective.

    Meeting recap.
    ==============

    Elisabeth did an absolutely fantastic job representing all affiliates, her presentation was factual and heartfelt and I felt that it really hit home to a few in attendance.

    Keith for WhenU, presented his companies facts and instead of presenting a paper opened the floor to questions and I was really impressed with the FACTS delivered by him and the realities that he brought to the meeting.

    Henri from Bizrate, was indeed a true ally! Henri, presented perspectives as both a merchant and as an affiliate, all equating to how serious the problem of parasiteware(TM) actually is.

    Paul from Ebates announced that as of last night the Mo Money Maker would no longer pilfer, steal, hijack (or whatever you want to call it) any affiliate traffic on all new downloads. News of the updating of the the existing install upgrades to follow. Paul, however, did specifically state that he wanted to issue a pop-up to inform "his customers" that they would be losing their rebate if the end user shopped via another link, but reserved such deployment till later (after the standards being set).

    Shawn Collins presented the ABW paper.

    Joe from Wurldmedia gave background on the history of wurld and allowed all to understand that they were the co-creators of the LS addendum and have lost revenues also to other "parasites" and that they are truly a brother in the cause to help all and to learn more.

    Tim Storm from FatWalet, presented a very good position ... it is the merchants decision to deal with the parasite and the injustice of "stealing" the plachinko ball ... great analogy!

    Lunch, furnished by linkshare, was a ceasar salad then grilled chicken and a wonderful cream filled tart like creation (in case anyone wondered) [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    After lunch the network delegates had a chance to ask the attendees their specific questions about moving forward, framing and how to. Some really great questions and points were raised and hopefully will be addressed, such as when notification should happen and by which manner and there was much talk of policing via a third party like affiliatetrust.org, via a rating system (like merchantwatch.com) or the networks themselves providing such information per merchant and even rating them by their peers amongst other specifics in implementation.

    Then the networks met behind closed doors for a hour and a half and Sam Gerace (BF) presented the one view of the networks, thanking us for attending etc and that a code of ethics will be announced in early December so that we may all move forward symbolically.

    All in all, a great meeting, very promising and I was really impressed!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

    [This message was edited by Haiko on November 07, 2002 at 08:32 PM.]

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador
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    Haiko,
    Thanks for being there for us.
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Keith for WhenU, presented his companies facts and instead of presenting a paper opened the floor to questions and I was really impressed with the FACTS delivered by him and the realities that he brought to the meeting.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Could you quote some of his facts?

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> News of the updating of the the existing install upgrades to follow. Paul, however, did specifically state that he wanted to issue a pop-up to inform "his customers" that they would be losing their rebate if the end user shopped via another link, but reserved such deployment till later (after the standards being set).
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    So, there goes Christmas as far as Ebates goes.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Then the networks met behind closed doors for a hour and a half and Sam Gerace (BF) presented the one view of the networks, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What was that view?

    Cazzie [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

  8. #8
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Thank you for the report and update.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I was really impressed with the FACTS delivered by him and the realities that he brought to the meeting.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What are these "FACTS" and "realities"?

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  9. #9
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cazzie:
    Could you quote some of his facts?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I don't recall all of them of hand but will try to post some of them from my notes.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    So, there goes Christmas as far as Ebates goes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I expressed the concerns that could be interpreted by any lag.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What was that view?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Sorry that I excluded that [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif[/img] They wanted all to know that a standard (code of ethics / rules of engagement would be detailed in the first week of Dec. Step by step we might also get releases on the other issues of policing and enforcement also.

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  10. #10
    Affiliate Summit Guy Shawn Collins's Avatar
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    Ditto to what Haiko said in his post. I think it's a very good thing to hear that eBates, and other Top Moxie clients are doing positive things.

    All in all, the mood seemed to be one of working together, rather than having polarized views on the way everything should work.

    Shawn Collins
    Director of Affiliate Marketing
    ClubMom, Inc.
    http://clubmomaffiliates.com/
    http://iAfma.us/
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  11. #11
    pph Expert! Gordon's Avatar
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    Give the guy time.

    You are asking him to type out what went on in a full days meeting in 1 hour or so. I am sure when he gets time he will give us a full breakdown.

    @ Haiko I don't suppose MR. e-bates or should I say Master eBates mentioned anything about giving me (Gordon Skevy) back my stolen commissions [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    Travel safe
    Gordon
    YouTrek

  12. #12
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Did eBates mentioned their non-thieving Mo Money version would automatically get installed thru their trojan horse backdoor onto the older systems? I'm amazed Whenu/TopMoxie could come to the table with facts that would impress the merchants and affiliates there. Did anyone bring up the A-G diversion disclosures in the merchant's network profiles during the discussions? That at least would assist network transparancy and help in choosing "affiliate freindly" merchants.

    Oh so many questions but I'll be patient and see if the participants give us hints as to the direct the Policy is heading towards.

    WebMaster Mike

  13. #13
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Give the guy time.

    You are asking him to type out what went on in a full days meeting in 1 hour or so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Well, of course that is unreasonable. But, you have to admit curiosity must be running high around here. Yes, they all need time. But, you know, we all want to hear all the details.

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  14. #14
    pph Expert! Gordon's Avatar
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    Ssanf <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Well, of course that is unreasonable. But, you have to admit curiosity must be running high around here. Yes, they all need time. But, you know, we all want to hear all the details.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes I totally agree. I don't normaly bite my fingernails but I am down to the second knuckle now, if things take much longer I will be typing with my toes tomorrow [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    Travel safe
    Gordon
    YouTrek

  15. #15
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    Haiko,

    Thank-you for taking the time to provide us with an update, after what I am sure, has been a very long several days. Your participation and behind the scenes work is very much appreciated.

    Also many thanks to all those who participated, on both sides of the "table." And I look forward to seeing the "official" announcements in the next few weeks and actual implementation.

    Finally, I hope Stephen gets well soon. That is truly a very unpleasant thing, food poisoning.

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  16. #16
    Full Member styleforfree's Avatar
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    Haiko, many thanks for the update.
    I've been anxious for such a summary all
    day and you provided an excellent one.

    Shawn, Elizabeth & Tim - thanks to each
    of you for taking your valuable time to
    help express the affiliate's concerns.

    Upon reading the above, my concerns are with the 3 million already registered/downloaded Mo Money Maker/eBates subscribers. Seems like everyone else at the meeting had solutions that were well
    articulated, but, I'm still very concerned
    about eBates:

    * I appreciate their effort to "fix" Mo
    Money Maker from hereon, but hasn't the
    bulk of their subscriber base already
    been realized with the current 3+ million
    users?

    * If it were me, as a shopper, and saw
    a pop up or message that said "don't use
    our service and lose your rebate"...
    DOH! what would I choose? To get my
    rebate, thus the affiliate still runs the
    risk of losing the sale.

    * I agree with Tim. It should be up to the
    merchant not to let the parasite taketh.
    The only problem is that soooooo many
    merchants don't have a clue. I've
    talked to, emailed, demonstrated to
    dozens and 85% of those I've talked to
    about it remain very surprised this is
    happening.

    Please correct me if I mis-interpreted any of the above, and accept my apologies. Hard to
    get a real flavor of what happened without
    being there.

    [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    With my best,

    Liz
    http://Styleforfree.com

  17. #17
    ABW Ambassador Andy's Avatar
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    Haiko, Elisabeth, and Shawn,

    Thanks to all of you for being there for us. I feel confident that all of you made sure the important points were brought to the table today.

    All of you deserve a pat on the back and a big "thanks" for everything you've done.

    THANKS!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    Andy

    AFFILIATE MARKETING STANDARD: The site upon which the initial action to buy occurs is the site the commission is paid to. Period.

  18. #18
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Gordon,

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>@ Haiko I don't suppose MR. e-bates or should I say Master eBates mentioned anything about giving me (Gordon Skevy) back my stolen commissions<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Unfortunately, no, but in moving forward, I see much protection from such happening again. If that is an answer.

    ==============
    Mike,

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Did eBates mentioned their non-thieving Mo Money version would automatically get installed thru their trojan horse backdoor onto the older systems?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Paul mentioned that a plan to update the old installs would be implemented but I don't have a time frame for that.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm amazed Whenu/TopMoxie could come to the table with facts that would impress the merchants and affiliates there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Actually, WhenU and Top Moxie usages are quite different, WhenU and TopMoxie were both represented and yes, they did impress because they can come into compliance also.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Did anyone bring up the A-G diversion disclosures in the merchant's network profiles during the discussions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, Shawn Collins did but it was damed extraneous to the issue at hand so it was appreciated but, as it was off topic, it was not gone over thoroughly.

    ===========
    BLFH,

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Thank-you for taking the time to provide us with an update, after what I am sure, has been a very long several days.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    My pleasure, yes it has been! Last night I only got four hours of sleep after the meeting and only a few more from the meetings the the day earlier, but it is worth it [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

    ===========
    liz,

    Your right on the mark! We actively discussed the notification options, when and how and await the networks code in december to see how the decided.

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  19. #19
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Andy,

    We all deserve the pat on the back .... affiliates, merchants, networks and "parasites"

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  20. #20
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    I'd also like to add that the allowed observer list was masterfully crafted! A few respected merchants and affiliates were allowed along with Shop.org.

    Wayne really did a great job in keeping the "arena" balanced, I really appreciated that.

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  21. #21
    ABW Ambassador Sam Bay's Avatar
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    It's all good to hear there will be some improvements to this very important matter.

    But, to me it sounded like eBates is still trying to leave a door open to be able manipulate new standards, so they could still steal the commisions, by threatining shoppers!?

    &gt; They did not give a time frame when they'll update existing 3 million Moe Money Makers

    &gt; Or when they'll start "warning" their users that if they shop through affiliates' links they'll use their "rebates", "cash backs".

    If they continue what they're doing now, in a new, diguised version, I'd say:

    Let's all get Top Moxie software, (or some software like that), then scared sh*t our shoppers going to any merchant's site, by popping up "cash back", "rebate", "coupon", "deal" messages whenever they visit a site in our "parabase".


    Still optimistic about the result of this meeting, but we should continue watch eBates very closely.

  22. #22
    ABW Ambassador CrazyGuy's Avatar
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    A strong policy from the networks will render eBates' feet-dragging irrelevant. If their current install is deemed "illegal" and there are appropriate consequences, I think we'll find it can be updated overnight [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    That, after all, was the point of this meeting - to move the policing of this into an arena where something could actually be done about it.

    We are reliant now upon the detail of the policy that comes out of the networks in the next few weeks. I'd appreciate a view from Haiko, Shawn and Elisabeth of their confidence level in this policy being sufficiently

    1) accurate with regard to the detail of the problem

    2) strong with regard to the consequnces of transgression (2nd, 3rd chances ...)

    3) resourced with regard to policing

    ... however I am somewhat relieved at the general tone that has emerged. Reserving final judgement 'til we see that policy of course.

    Are you Crazy?

  23. #23
    ABW Ambassador
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    Thank You Haiko for the re-cap...I also look forward to seeing more action in the next few weeks. I'll be the first to admit that I was probably wrong about my first impressions of the meeting. My first thoughts were that things were already in place and this meeting was just to silence the affiliates....I'm glad I was wrong and that things will (hopefully) begin moving forward for us affiliates.

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  24. #24
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Did any media types like the NY Times take down some notes for an article? Would be nice to see how a "play fair or else" outsider would summ up the meeting. We probably entering the imposed quiet period as the No Theft Policy is drafted. Any network wanting to win over some converts would immediately address the A-G recommendations that were important affiliate considerations 2 years ago before parasites.

    Meantime the voters here pushed my two sympathetic ears looking at the legalities of parasites and spammers into the Governors & the Attorney Generals Office. Next up is pressure to the FTC looking to muzzle the WWW ( Wild Wild West) with existing fair trade -truth in advertising and Broadcasting laws.

    WebMaster Mike

  25. #25
    Affiliate Summit Guy Shawn Collins's Avatar
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    Mike -

    No media was not permitted into the meeting. I think this definitely helped, as everybody was extremely candid and open.

    Shawn Collins
    Director of Affiliate Marketing
    ClubMom, Inc.
    http://clubmomaffiliates.com/
    http://iAfma.us/
    http://affiliatemanager.net/

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