Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27
  1. #1
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 25th, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    230
    Advertisers and Networks - Frustrating
    As most other CPA networks work together so do we with a few. I am getting very fed up with a few things though. Last week we got an IM from our AM at the other network saying the advertiser is not going to pay you for leads to this offer. My response was why? She then said poor traffic. I said ok poor traffic or fraud leads. She said both. I said well for poor traffic you should give us notice so we can stop the traffic before we pay people on our network and then loose money on your end. She says to me sorry. Then I said as far as fraud please send me all complaints to this auto loan offer so I can deal with it and find out who or who's sending the bad leads so we can ban them from our network. She says ok. Well today still no response with the complaints so I can do my job in stopping it. She says we are terminating your link to 2 other offers. I simply said we are stopping all our traffic to your offers and are going to go work with people who know how to work together.

    I guess I do have a question in this after my rant sorry. Why do they do this? Is it to stiff us for 50k? Why would they do this if they get 100k+ a month from us in traffic. Simply it is just communication. If there is a problem lets work it out. But no, they just make an action before thinking.

    Ok, youíre all sick of me now. lol sorry.

    I guess we just need to stop working with networks on some offers and go direct on them all. Itís just nice to keep as much as possible in as few places as possible there fore we are not collecting from 50 different companies.

  2. #2
    Internet Cowboy
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Posts
    4,662
    The sub-affiliate CPA model is rife with parasitic adware applications, spammers and other sleazy tactics. When you play with this crowd, this is what you get.
    Now tell me your network is parasite-free. We'll agree to disagree on that one.

  3. #3
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 25th, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    230
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleScooter
    The sub-affiliate CPA model is rife with parasitic adware applications, spammers and other sleazy tactics. When you play with this crowd, this is what you get.
    Now tell me your network is parasite-free. We'll agree to disagree on that one.
    Please go to our site and read our blog which states:

    "Weíve decided, in the interests of protecting both affiliates and advertiser relationships, as well as the end consumer that we ultimately all serve, to become a no-download network. That means Adfinity will not be promoting or distributing offers that include toolbars, adware downloads, or anything that might be interpreted as parasiteware or similar product."

    Published March 22nd, 2007

    We are parasite-free.

    I do not understand though how that has anything to do with another network that we work with in exchanging offers is trying to stiff us without providing us the proof or material needed to fix any of the problems.

  4. #4
    Internet Cowboy
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Posts
    4,662
    And you don't cross publish any offers with any networks that have spammers in their affiliate pool or affiliates using adware? Are you sure about that? If this is undeniably true, then I am wrong. But I'll bet I am not.

    You can control your affiliates to some degree, but you can't control the other networks you work with or their affiliates.

    I have yet to see a subaffiliate type CPA network that is parasite free although they all claim to be. If you cross publish offers, you have no idea what is happening on the other end. There is no transparency. You proved that when you said:
    Then I said as far as fraud please send me all complaints to this auto loan offer so I can deal with it and find out who or who's sending the bad leads so we can ban them from our network. She says ok. Well today still no response with the complaints so I can do my job in stopping it.
    There is no real way to police affiliates in this environment.

    I am not bashing you Joe, I am only stating what happens when subaffiliate CPA networks cross publish and run each other's promotions. Ask Kellie at AffiliateFairPlay. She will tell you I am right.

  5. #5
    .
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Posts
    2,973
    What does your contract say?

    Oh, wait, you don't have a written contract that spells out the terms and conditions of your relationships with your business partners?

    None of this is rocket science; these issues are the exact same issues that have existed for 10+ years in cost-per-action advertising on the internet. What constitutes a valid "action," how much notice is required to change or end an offer, how are disputes resolved -- these are things that should be clearly spelled out in a written contract.

    I can understand relying on "handshake" deals, or deciding to simply "trust someone's word" for small dollar amounts, but not for a $100K-per-month business relationship.

  6. #6
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 25th, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    230
    I guess what I am not understanding is how does an offer being crossed published to us, in where our publishers run the offer, have anything to do with the network we pulled the offer from and their publishers. We manage our publishers. Because she is not giving me the proof I feel that we are being just scammed by the advertiser of that network. Not anything to do with bad pubs. If so wouldnít they have given us that proof already?

    I am not trying to argue either yet understand what it is youíre trying to tell me so that we can become better. We have taken a strong stance against social network traffic, downloads, and are working on a major up haul in our verification and fraud prevention team for sign ups and leads.

    So I guess I am taking a little offense to it when I am working so very hard not to be or connect myself tot he things you speak of.

    I guess try me again to show me the connection so hopefully I can understand this time.

    I appreciate your feedback and know youíre not trying to bash me. In the same sense I donít want to be to defensive and try to understand what youíre saying so that I can fix the problem. And not be one of those "other networks".

    Thanks Scooter
    Last edited by adFinityJoe; May 8th, 2007 at 02:12 PM. Reason: Spelling

  7. #7
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 25th, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    230
    Quote Originally Posted by markwelch
    What does your contract say?

    Oh, wait, you don't have a written contract that spells out the terms and conditions of your relationships with your business partners?

    None of this is rocket science; these issues are the exact same issues that have existed for 10+ years in cost-per-action advertising on the internet. What constitutes a valid "action," how much notice is required to change or end an offer, how are disputes resolved -- these are things that should be clearly spelled out in a written contract.

    I can understand relying on "handshake" deals, or deciding to simply "trust someone's word" for small dollar amounts, but not for a $100K-per-month business relationship.

    Mark so in your opinion we should get a valid contract that spells everything out even with cross published offers? I think that is a good idea. I just think some of these bigger networks think they can steal and not care about what they do with some networks or publishers. This way at least they will be held to a contractual obligation to give notice, to provide facts etc.

    Is that what your trying to say Mark?

    I would like your input.

    Thanks!

  8. #8
    Kung Fu Master Eathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Posts
    1,833
    Sometimes you get so jaded you just feel like "Why should I bother explaining it to another affiliate? They know full well they're sending garbage and I wouldn't shed a tear if they never sent another click..."

    Not saying this is what happened in your case, but it happens. You get sick of telling affiliates that the lead was actually deceased and hearing "Wow, I have no idea how that happened."

    "The lead actually filled out a free chewing gum offer 3 months ago, not a refinance form."

    "Wow, I have no idea how that happened."
    Eathan Mertz

    Black Cat Mining - Gold Prospecting & Rockhounding Equipment

  9. #9
    Internet Cowboy
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Posts
    4,662
    LOL,
    My original first post in this thread was something along the lines of "Does someone else want to explain this to him?" But Joe seems like a nice guy so I took some time.


  10. #10
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 25th, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    230
    Quote Originally Posted by Eathan
    Sometimes you get so jaded you just feel like "Why should I bother explaining it to another affiliate? They know full well they're sending garbage and I wouldn't shed a tear if they never sent another click..."

    Not saying this is what happened in your case, but it happens. You get sick of telling affiliates that the lead was actually deceased and hearing "Wow, I have no idea how that happened."

    "The lead actually filled out a free chewing gum offer 3 months ago, not a refinance form."

    "Wow, I have no idea how that happened."

    Ethan I understand what you are saying, but when we are doing 100k + of business with them per month they owe some communication. I understand someone who generates a few leads but not that much money. I bet after we cut them off they will be crying for our traffic again in a few weeks.

  11. #11
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 25th, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    230
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleScooter
    LOL,
    My original first post in this thread was something along the lines of "Does someone else want to explain this to him?" But Joe seems like a nice guy so I took some time.

    Thanks Scooter for the compliment.

  12. #12
    Kung Fu Master Eathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Posts
    1,833
    Quote Originally Posted by adFinityJoe
    Ethan I understand what you are saying, but when we are doing 100k + of business with them per month they owe some communication. I understand someone who generates a few leads but not that much money. I bet after we cut them off they will be crying for our traffic again in a few weeks.
    Just saying in their minds they might've figured you already knew whatever they could tell you.

    I'd personally be frustrated as hell, but I think I'd direct it back to policing my partners. They're the ones who screwed you.

    Best of luck.
    Eathan Mertz

    Black Cat Mining - Gold Prospecting & Rockhounding Equipment

  13. #13
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 25th, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    230
    Ethan your right. Thatís why I am so angry because I want the complaints, the data, anything that can assist me in finding out who we need to boot form out network but they are not providing this info. But your right we can do a better job I am sure we all can policing our networks. I am sure trying my best. We are looking into many things Joe Lilly was a big help and his datax seems like it will be very helpful for us in screening our initial applicants.

    Anyways thank you all for you input. Time to move on. I vented and feel better now!

  14. #14
    Affiliate Manager
    Join Date
    June 14th, 2006
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by UncleScooter
    The sub-affiliate CPA model is rife with parasitic adware applications, spammers and other sleazy tactics. When you play with this crowd, this is what you get.
    Now tell me your network is parasite-free. We'll agree to disagree on that one.

    Hey Joe,

    Scooter is right. It's just the nature of the business especially when you cross publish deals. All networks involved are in danger of losing their commission because of the parasites and spammers from just one network.

    Always try and deal direct. Don't cross publish deals just to get the "hot one" on your network. Overall, the commissions you will offer will stink and it's just not worth it. It can also make your network look(no disrespect intended) cheap, and just like everyone else.

    Gain the exclusive offers, keep your network parasite free and you will see all of ABW run to Adfinity.

    Don't get frustrated. You are just gaining experience in the biz!

    By the way, Joe is a stand up guy and very good to do business with. Adfinity is definitely on my white list of CPA networks. Good Job JOE!
    Last edited by EasyClickTravel; May 8th, 2007 at 03:09 PM. Reason: typo

  15. #15
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 25th, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    230
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyClickTravel
    Hey Joe,

    Scooter is right. It's just the nature of the business especially when you cross publish deals. All networks involved are in danger of losing their commission because of the parasites and spammers from just one network.

    Always try and deal direct. Don't cross publish deals just to get the "hot one" on your network. Overall, the commissions you will offer will stink and it's just not worth it. It can also make your network look(no disrespect intended) cheap, and just like everyone else.

    Gain the exclusive offers, keep your network parasite free and you will see all of ABW run to Adfinity.

    Don't get frustrated. You are just gaining experience in the biz!

    By the way, Joe is a stand up guy and very good to do business with. Adfinity is definitely on my white list of CPA networks. Good Job JOE!
    I agree thanks Jon for the input.

  16. #16
    Kung Fu Master Eathan's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Posts
    1,833
    Might go back to them with a white flag asking if you can please get the info they said they'd give you. Sometimes understanding where they're at might pave the way smoother relations.

    Anyhoo, best of luck.
    Eathan Mertz

    Black Cat Mining - Gold Prospecting & Rockhounding Equipment

  17. #17
    Believe knight01's Avatar
    Join Date
    August 14th, 2006
    Location
    Dayton, Ohio
    Posts
    1,815
    Quote Originally Posted by adFinityJoe
    I appreciate your feedback and know youíre not trying to bash me. In the same sense I donít want to be to defensive and try to understand what youíre saying so that I can fix the problem. And not be one of those "other networks".
    Thanks Scooter
    I don't say much here as I'm just a small time affiliiate and I try to use most of my time here reading and learning.

    I have relationships with several of the CPA networks. Each say they are different but after I join I see the same campaigns with slightly different payouts.

    As I consider starting an affiliate program of my own and considering the various networks, I've been concerned about the control and attitude the network exhibits. I'd rather have 50 good leads from 10 affiliates than 50,000 from 100 'shady ones'.

    I applaud you , Joe, for caring about the quality of affiliates on your network and the leads that they generate. Sadly in the CPA network world that seems to be lacking.

  18. #18
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 25th, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    230
    Quote Originally Posted by knight01
    I don't say much here as I'm just a small time affiliiate and I try to use most of my time here reading and learning.

    I have relationships with several of the CPA networks. Each say they are different but after I join I see the same campaigns with slightly different payouts.

    As I consider starting an affiliate program of my own and considering the various networks, I've been concerned about the control and attitude the network exhibits. I'd rather have 50 good leads from 10 affiliates than 50,000 from 100 'shady ones'.

    I applaud you , Joe, for caring about the quality of affiliates on your network and the leads that they generate. Sadly in the CPA network world that seems to be lacking.
    Knight thank you for your post. I never get compliments for my efforts and making something I love into a fun, moral, business model. I know it is hard. There are things that are out of our hands. But I am sincerely going above and beyond to make our network the best it can be. If that means getting rid of 100 affs then so be it. We will ban anyone who does not support out business model and how we conduct business.

    Anyways, again your post is very much appreciated. Sometimes you work so long and hard and never get that positive pat on the back for your efforts. Not that its needs but is nice every once in a while.

  19. #19
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    The Swamp
    Posts
    7,503
    Ask Kellie at AffiliateFairPlay. She will tell you I am right.
    The Scoot is right.

    "Weíve decided, in the interests of protecting both affiliates and advertiser relationships, as well as the end consumer that we ultimately all serve, to become a no-download network. That means Adfinity will not be promoting or distributing offers that include toolbars, adware downloads, or anything that might be interpreted as parasiteware or similar product."

    Published March 22nd, 2007

    We are parasite-free.
    Don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not questioning your business ethics. But what you posted is not the same thing as being parasite-free as far as your publishers go. I applaud your stance on what you quoted which goes to facilitating the problem by assisting in the distribution of such software. And certainly there are many CPA Networks out there who will allow these types of advertisers.

    But that isn't what Scooter was talking about. He was talking about their being publishers within the Network who are using adware to generate traffic and/or leads. This can happen even with form type lead offers. Some of the nastier rogue scripts and software auto fill out lead forms.

    So I think you and Scooter were looking at things from a somewhat different perspective.

    Second response coming in a bit regarding your original posted frustration.

  20. #20
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
    Join Date
    January 18th, 2005
    Location
    The Swamp
    Posts
    7,503
    Mark gives very good advice with regards to a contract. The point worth mentioning is to do due diligence research regarding the other CPA Network that you are considering running a cross published offer. Know Thy Partner. It can go a long way into avoiding problems.

    I'm not trying to spark yet another "not all CPA Networks are bad" discussion. But there is a reality within that market. There are CPA Networks out there with less than stellar track records when it comes to the kinds of business practices they are willing to engage in. More than one CPA Network is founded/owned by someone with a past history of spam marketing. More than one CPA Network is founded/owned by someone who did or still does operate adware as well. Many CPA Networks have very close tied with adware companies. Others will use adware themselves as an affiliate within their own Network (I've documented at least one such instance of that here on ABW). All of this is just a reality of the marketplace. It's my own personal opinion, and just my opinion, that more than one CPA Network was started by a spammer/adware owner or user as a means to add a layer of protection for their own marketing tactics that have been coming under more government scrunity and action. I have to ask myself is the rise of CPA Networks and the implementation of CANSPAM a coincidence.

    There are several possibilites in what you've experienced. For those reading who may not be familiar with cross publishing, I'll generalize out what Joe is talking about.

    We'll call the Network not paying Joe Network A. Network A has a lead offer for MerchantX. AdFinity joins NetworkA as an affiliate. AdFinity then lists MerchantX's offer on AdFinity. AdFinity publishers then promote the offer. These publishers are now sub-affiliates of AdFinity promoting MerchantX. From NetworkA's and MerchantX's perspectives, AdFinity is the primary affiliate with sub affiliates. NetworkA and MerchantX have no idea who the actual AdFinity publishers are or how the ads are being promoted. This type of situation is common with CPA Networks (why they are also called sub-affiliate networks) and is one way CPA Networks generate the volume which allows them to get higher payouts from Advertisers. It's called cross publishing, ad syndication, ad brokering, ad reselliing and probably some other terms as well.

    Here are some possibilites of what has happened to AdFinity (based off the limited information provided):

    1. The NetworkA is not operated by folks with a high business ethics. They are just stiffing AdFinity. Not a very good long term business approach, but people don't always make good business decisions and such things can happen.

    2. There is a tracking issue where the subID tag (which would indicate the specific AdFinity affiliate for each lead) didn't make it's way to MerchantX, only the primary affiliate ID (which would be AdFinity aff id with NetworkX). I've seen this happen at times in reviewing ad stream logs. So MerchantX may just know they got traffic from AffIdxxxxx (AdFinity) they didn't like, but did not have information to pinpoint it to specific subIDs on the AdFinity Network. The Merchant could well look at it as traffic source as a single source rather than coming from multiple sources, which is the true case. If the Merchant too that view, they could well say to NetworkX, we aren't paying on any leads on this AffiliateID, which is the whole AdFinity account.

    3. MerchantX is stiffing NetworkA and they are passing the cost on to AdFinity.

    4. NetworkA isn't policing their network well and have bad players who sent poor traffic and/or fraudulent leads to MerchantX. MerchantX refused to pay on all leads from NetworkA.

    5. There was one or more bad publisher for AdFinity that they have not identified. That publisher(s) actions polluted the whole pool of traffic from AdFinity because the Merchant took the stance as described in 2.

    6. NetworkA's offer for the Merchant isn't direct to the Merchant, but they are also cross-publishing it from NetworkB, who has the direct relationship with the Merchant. The opportunities for a bad player to pollute the traffic pool to the Merchant has now expotentially increased. In this case, NetworkA wouldn't have access to information AdFinity is requesting even if they wanted to provide it. That information would be held by NetworkB. Again, it would fall back on what the Merchant's policies are going to be regarding payment when fraud or poor quality traffic is found and what the Network/Merchant contract looks like.

    I'm sure there are other possibilites I haven't thought of off the top of my head. A lack of transparency is the frustration Joe is experiencing right now. He is wanting data he doesn't have access to that a Network normally would have and would use to maintain the quality of their Network. It is inherent to CPA Networks when cross publishing occurs. Unfortunately, it is an issue that has not been adequately addressed (IMO) within the CPA Network industry in implementing measures for quality assurrance with regards to inherent lack of transparency with the business model.

    Knowing how the Network you are going to cross-publish handles such issues before you promote them can go a long way. Getting it in writing as Mark mentioned as well. Know the reputation of the network you are cross publishing and what their own compliance efforts are like and what types of practices they allow in their network. Because there are instances where the actions of their affiliate pool can impact your publisher base, regardless of how "clean" you maitain your program.

  21. #21
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 25th, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    230
    Kelli what a wonderful review and summary of the problem and some solutions. I am not going to address each part of your post but I think you hit many of the points on the head. There is little/no transparency and I guess that is what is really making it hard for me to control quality.

    I will absolutely follow yours and Marks advice with the contracts. If they donít want to sign them so there is transparency then we will not do business with them.

    You all have been very helpful and I feel much better about the situation then I did yesterday. As being a young CEO making decisions daily can be rough and the only way to learn is from the experiences I receive in return which gains me wisdom. You all help the growing of my wisdom part and hope that next time I am about to enter into an agreement I will be able to do more due diligence as well as make a better choice in who we work with.

    Thanks again!

  22. #22
    Newbie DaddyHalbucks's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 8th, 2007
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada USA
    Posts
    42
    She should value your relationship more than that.


  23. #23
    CPA Network Rep Joe Lilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 25th, 2006
    Location
    Vegas, Baby!
    Posts
    977
    The auto loan space is particularly tough with charge backs. In that model, online lead brokers find lots of local lots and sell to them. One of my business partners works with over 300 local lots. Obviously the small local car guys don't want to pay for bad leads, so they charge back the lead aggregator for leads that they dont believe are "quality". Importantly "quality" is as defined by a car salesman. Very subjective.

    If the lead broker is smart they will net down bad debt on the front end and not charge you back. If they're not smart, you'll run their offer for a month and then they'll get charged back at the end of their billing cycle and pass it right back to you and you, the network, get screwed. Sounds like this is what is happening.

    Soooo.....fyi re the auto loan space. That's why I only deal with the no-chargeback guys.
    Joseph Lilly
    PartnerWeekly, LLC 702.407.0707 joe.lilly at partnerweekly.com
    PartnerWeekly

  24. #24
    CPA Network Rep adFinityJoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 25th, 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    230
    Joe you hit it on the head as well this seems to be what is happening. And for that, I am going to take up Marks suggestion with written contracts as well as only work with no charge back guys. Your a no charge back right ?

  25. #25
    CPA Network Rep Joe Lilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 25th, 2006
    Location
    Vegas, Baby!
    Posts
    977
    yup.
    Joseph Lilly
    PartnerWeekly, LLC 702.407.0707 joe.lilly at partnerweekly.com
    PartnerWeekly

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Networks require Advertisers to be PCI compliant?
    By Lanny in forum Business & Legal Issues
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: December 1st, 2011, 09:08 AM
  2. Do CPA advertisers have to log into multiple networks?
    By eSilverBullet in forum Midnight Cafe'
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: October 25th, 2010, 04:00 PM
  3. I've found my niche, I know my advertisers, how do I find the affiliate networks?
    By tieTYT in forum Newbie Affiliate FAQs & Helpful Articles
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: August 19th, 2008, 04:28 PM
  4. this is frustrating!
    By waytogo in forum Google Affiliate Network - GAN
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: December 4th, 2004, 12:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •