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  1. #1
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    You know, I found a thread here the other day about the loss of sales due to unethical business practicies that was a year old!

    And I see lots of people talking about how much money they make with their sites, (myself included) and how much they are loosing due to parasites.

    So if we all are really making so much money, and these parasites really are costing us as much as we think they are, then why aren't we putting our money where our mouths are?

    To start a fed. lawsuit in the US takes about $5K just to talk about it. Another $15K to start moving forward. So why don't 20 of us put up $1000 each to hire an attorney in the US to just get this mess out on the table? Isn't it worth is? Aren't we past the time of "hoping" they will change their ways?

    It'd bring much needed media attention. This ebates thing is a perfect test case (they look as guilty as sin) and it'd show the rest of the scum we really mean what we say, and that we are not just a bunch of whiners that can be placated by promises never fulfilled.

    I just think it's time to put up or shutup.

    JMHO.

    http://SearchToSale.com - Turns your search box into money.

  2. #2
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    Because we don't trust each other

  3. #3
    Full Member Jungleland's Avatar
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    I wonder if its that easy, and what consequences there are if an action like this is taken?

    "Don't let yesterday take up to much of today."

  4. #4
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    I would urge -- indeed beg -- anyone with the time to do so, to grab a copy of Ebates' latest release and see what it does, and document it in whatever way you can.

    Then, assuming you see a problem, send a formal complaint to the FBI's Internet Fraud Complaint Center. DO NOT WAIT FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO DO IT FOR YOU!!!!!!!

    http://www1.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp

    The more people who submit intelligent, well-documented complaints, the better chance we have to trigger a full-scale FBI investigation.

    Become informed from the grumbling we do to each other, do your own testing and document it, then make a formal complaint to the authorities who have the power to lay criminal charges.

    This does not cost money, it just costs time. And backbone.

    Elisabeth Archambault

  5. #5
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    Affjus, I can't give 1000 straight up but, I'll donate monthly.

    For those of you who sday / think it's because of very little trust, you better WAKE UP.

    The only thing you can trust is that this issue is NOT GOING AWAY, the networks are going to HO HUM aorund and not protect our rights and the parasites will CONTINUE TO TAKE OUR BUTTS TO THE CLEANERS.

    As far as I'm concerned to many people come in here and benefit from "the good will" of others helping them and then do nothing to give back towards a cause of betterment and fair treatment for all affiliates.

    Many of the people in here are only making the money they are making because they came in here and got information from all this boards posts and comments - Myself included! I had a shitty little site for about a year that I made a couple of bucks off of before I found this site.

    Not putting up any money towards a lawsuit in this cause is simply rediculus.

    If trust is an issue, please go away and don't come back. The irony here is sour as bad milk.

  6. #6
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    Elisabeth,

    I filed one a while back and later had discussions with someone who said 20 complaints had to be filled in before action would take place and that it was being "worked on".

    I'd like your comments on this. I assume your post indicates otherwise.

    Also, did you post a compliant? There are I think 4 or 5 categories that you could post under and if we're going to siggest for people to file a compliant I for one would like the complaint to be consistent and do feel that will better our chances.

    There is a post in the parasiteware forum on legal opionions regarding parasiteware - I put in after talking with an attorney in detail and had hoped others would contribute but as usual, there hasn't been a single response in it from others on information that would help us file a lawsuit or anything else for that matter.

    Again - the irony is pretty thick! I've *****ed about members in here not doing anything but complaining and shutting their eyes many times before and guess what, I'll take the opportunity to say them same things to them as I'd say to the parasites.

    SHAME ON YOU!

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador CrazyGuy's Avatar
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    Well, I have spent ALL of today testing, documenting and reporting (including FBI) my experience with MMM, 2 of my sites, 2 merchants, 2 networks.

    And I'm not finished yet.

    As well as being (not directly) productive it has been downright depressing. On the upside, one of the merchants is on the verge of seeing the light - but it's been an expensive day for me.

    I'm not convinced about the FBI doing much. My overwhelming feeling while completing the report was - they're gonna say this is between you, the merchant, ebates and the networks.

    We all await the early Dec pronouncement from the networks, but my trust and optimism are at an all-time low today. Very frustrating that we have to spend so much time defending ourselves - certainly interested in subscribing to representation, but maybe something with a wider membership, monthly costs. Don't ask me who or how though [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

    Are you Crazy?

  8. #8
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    I too have heard the figure that it takes 20 complaints. It would make sense that they would allocate their limited resources to issues that seemed to be causing the biggest problems. All the more reason for EVERYONE to submit whatever complaint they can.

    I have an appointment and have to go, I'll say more later in the day.

  9. #9
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    What category should the complaint be filed under?

    Business / Investment opportunity,
    Copyright,
    International Fraud,
    or other?

    I put my claim under business / investment opportunity but international fraud is what I would now consider the best place to post this issue under.

  10. #10
    Defender of Truth, Justice and the Affiliate Way
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    happypoon,

    They will forward complaints if it is not in their jurisdiction (ie. FTC, Post Master, etc.).

    You are right that there needs to be consistency as to the actual complaint, who is named, and under what it is filed.

    Keep Your Hands Off My Cookies

  11. #11
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    I'm not ready to pledge $1000 just yet, but I believe this is something that should be looked into. Perhaps, as a first step, if enough money could be raised to at least get some decent opinions and direction. We should see what kind of interest there is from members of this board, and if it is sufficient then take this private (and make sure we don't have anybody from the other side).

  12. #12
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    I took part in a trade group action against the UK Inland Revenue a few years ago in another IT field and that took the equivalent of $2-$3 million for high court action and appeal.
    I don't think you would get far with $20K.

  13. #13
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chinaski:
    Because we don't trust each other<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Wow. Last answer I expected here.

    That is a very sad statement.

    I personally disagree, and I'm very sad you feel that way.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    I don't think you would get far with $20K.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No disrespect, but you aren't talking like an affiliate here... What we do is learn how to fit into the cracks of the system. Just like a little seed starts in the crack in the sidewalk. But eventually that seed becomes a 100' oak tree. If done correctly, $20K would be enough to make people notice.

    Besides, what are you going to do? Wait till your current checks are wiped out? By then, no one will have a penny to spend to fight this. We need to fight it now while we still have something to fight with.

    Back to what you said first... I think I could find 20 people I would trust here. Actually I only need 19. I'm in.

    http://SearchToSale.com - Turns your search box into money.

    [This message was edited by AffJus on November 27, 2002 at 01:07 PM.]

    [This message was edited by AffJus on November 27, 2002 at 01:08 PM.]

  14. #14
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Then, assuming you see a problem, send a formal complaint to the FBI's Internet Fraud Complaint Center. DO NOT WAIT FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO DO IT FOR YOU!!!!!!!

    http://www1.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The FBI will only start an investigation if you can quantify a loss of $100,000 or more.

    Additionally, this is a civil case. While you & I can see what they are doing is criminal, to the government, this is a civil case until the courts or legislature say otherwise.

    Additionally it took the FBI 2 years to shut down the art shill ring on ebay. In 2 years, if this keeps up, there won't be anyone left.

    http://SearchToSale.com - Turns your search box into money.

    [This message was edited by AffJus on November 27, 2002 at 01:11 PM.]

  15. #15
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jungleland:
    I wonder if its that easy, and what consequences there are if an action like this is taken?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    To get a lawyer to take $20,000 from us? Sure, that's easy as pie!

    But to get results? No, that's harder. But IF we had the funds on the table, I know we could find a real law firm that would take it.


    .... I just got to thinking.. there might be a ... I'm thinking. I'm going to check something.

    As to consequences? If we take action against one company that company will not want to do business with us. In this case, I ask you: what will you lose?

    Nothing. Who's dealing with them anyway?

    http://SearchToSale.com - Turns your search box into money.

  16. #16
    ABW Veteran Student Heyder's Avatar
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    Is there a way we could organize all of our complaints and have them sent in.

    Honestly I wouldn't know how or where to start nor what to say but if someone were to make it clear to me what needed to be done I would help.

  17. #17
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>.

    If trust is an issue, please go away and don't come back. The irony here is sour as bad milk.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



    Bravo Happypoon!!! I could not have said it better!

    Thank you!!! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

    http://SearchToSale.com - Turns your search box into money.

  18. #18
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heyderâ„¢:
    Is there a way we could organize all of our complaints and have them sent in.

    Honestly I wouldn't know how or where to start nor what to say but if someone were to make it clear to me what needed to be done I would help.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What we need is a pledge. This is what the site http://AffiliateJustice.com was about. Getting people to pledge their support. Back when we started it, it was to go after merchants that didn't pay. The problem was, usually the good affs just go on to the next merchant and chalk it up as a loss.

    But now, we have ebates (and their like) that threaten our way of life like no single merchant every could.

    The proceedure is simple:

    1. get enough people to agreee to pledge money. I want to see 20 people put up $1000 each to get the ball rolling. As Happy said, most of us learned from coming here. We owe it to ourselves and this community. If we are making at least %$1000/month, we owe it to put up $1000 into the kitty.

    2. Anyone else who is not doing as well can donate whatever they can afford.

    3. No one actually sends anyone money at this time. It's just a pledge. Once we get $20K in pledges, we find a lawyer willing to take the case. That will not be hard. thi sis a clear cut case of stealing.

    4. Our goal is to get the case filed in US Fed. court and bring MUCH NEEDED media attention to this matter.

    Remeber when gator was hauled into court? How much press that got? We do the same thing. THEN the merchants will bail because they don't want to be a part of anyone being hauled into a court issue. They won't want the liability. Maybe they don't know about the issues, but when the read the headline and they use ebates, you better believe they will take the time to educate themselvse.

    The bottom line is: put up or shut up. (for those who can)
    Stop waiting for the government or someone else to do it for us. We have to take responsibility for this issue ourselves. It's too complicated to hope to get those outside to understand without motivating them. A US Federal court case will provide that motivation. You and I whining at ABW will not.

    So, I'm challenging all those here who have learned from ABW or are a part of this community. I pledge $1000 right now. I'm asking for 19 other people to do the same, and anyone else can pledge whatever they can afford.

    Because if we don't now, in a year, I don't think there is going to be anyone around to fund anything.

    http://SearchToSale.com - Turns your search box into money.

  19. #19
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    Here, I started a poll:

    How much would you be willing to contribute?

    http://abw.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&...471#8906090471

    http://SearchToSale.com - Turns your search box into money.

  20. #20
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    It would be a lot more effective if you can get 400 people to pledge $50. That way if more needs to be raised for a second round or even a third round, you have a better chance of getting it.

    You would need to campaign on many more boards than just ABW, but I think it could be done.

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  21. #21
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    Wouldn't some kind of a petition signed by everyone be easier to sumit to proper authorties? We just keep sumitting the same petitiont till we find the right person to listen to our complaints.
    ( isn't this how laws are made ? )

    Even if I had to I would go door to door to get signatures. You know everybody is sick and tired of pop ups and other things they can't control on their computers while surfing on the Internet.

    You Know we are traffic controllers of the Internet, We can do this! matter of fact we are The Internet.Not just as affiliates, also as WebMasters. We need to act together as ONE.

    "It's your foot, you can shoot it if you want to." ~ Me

  22. #22
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The FBI will only start an investigation if you can quantify a loss of $100,000 or more.
    Additionally, this is a civil case. While you & I can see what they are doing is criminal, to the government, this is a civil case until the courts or legislature say otherwise. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Please give a reference for this. I'd like to do some more reading ...

    One lawyer I talked to said there are laws on the books going back 300 years that are clearly applicable and would provide a firm basis for legal action (including criminal prosecution) now.

    According to a source I trust that I am not free to name, there ARE people in the FBI with some awareness of our issues, but for resources to be allocated for an investigation they need enough formal complaints to make the issue a priority at their end. So no matter what we do in the meantime about gathering a legal war chest, the more people who submit informative, well-documented complaints to the authorities, the better.

    I'll cheerfully pledge $50 to the war chest, and more as it becomes appropriate. I also have a lawyer I'd like to recommend ...

    When there's a SPECIFIC action to support, I expect the community will be generous. One thing we'll need to watch here is duplication of effort and dilution of energy. Haiko has some ideas mapped out, I believe the folks at iafma.org are considering some alternatives, etc. It's important for people to stay in touch so that whatever any group does is intelligently co-ordinated with the others.

    "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed it's the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead"

    Elisabeth Archambault

  23. #23
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Haiko has some ideas mapped out<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Haiko has some MAJOR things towards this end in motion that will be announced *VERY* shortly!

    I seriously doubt Herby will do shoot besides his usual smoke and mirror show!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

  24. #24
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    Herby isn't the issue. It is a matter of reaching as many affiliates as possible wherever they can be found. Some of them are at his board. More are elsewhere. Efforts need to be co-ordinated.

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  25. #25
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Ssanf,

    The issue is ACTION as you will see!

    <font size="2" face="Verdana">Haiko


    The secret of success is constancy of purpose. ~ Disraeli
    </font></p>

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