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  1. #1
    Schlaumeier cumbrowski's Avatar
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    The Exclusion List Q&A was closed, before I was able to post anything, but I understand Haiko by doing so.

    I started reading the initial post and wrote down the questions I had. I saw 10 pages of existing posts ahead. I was intrigued by the Idea to post my questions right away. But I realized, that it will not just waste Haiko's time to read and answer the same questions over and over again, it will also fall back on everybody else who wants to read, understand and contribute to the topic.

    It took me 3 hours to read all the posts and to think about them (that helps by the way ). I was able to answer my original questions and added and got answered my new questions during the process.

    At the end all questions were answered and only recommendations remained. I also got a clear picture what the list can do for me and what not.

    I know that this issue affects a lot of people and that everybody here has an opinion about it. That makes it more important than ever, to take the time and read the existing posts and only answer, if your answer has any value for everybody else at ABW.

    This Topic is now about Recommendations. I will start with a statement and excerpt first for all who did not read the existing topics thoroughly. It took me another 2 1/2 hours to write this, so read first my post and all the answers, before you reply. Thanks.

    I am not a fan of such a list, but it will solve (or reduce) short and mid term problems with parasites. The law didn’t catch up yet and it will take a while to do so (It will take some Lawsuit like the TD one). I still think, that legal decisions and laws are required regarding the question “Who owns the users desktop?” and what interference with the data stream and end result of the transfer and display of content between Webserver and the Users Brower is legal and what not. That includes triggering anything based on content in this data stream (Urls , Keywords etc.)
    The Problem is more or less solved, when it comes to Television and Radio. It will be solved for the Internet as well, if you will like it or not.

    Now an Excerpt of what the List can do and not do for you. Haiko, please correct me, where I am wrong.

    1.
    The list is not legally binding for any Parasite Software, even if they agree to acknowledge the List. However, they will loose a lot of credibility, if they agree and not realize the integration of it. Bad Press!

    2.
    Your Website URL will be encrypted and transferred to users machines. The encryption is one-way only, meaning, that you can not decrypt it, even if you know the encryption key (SSant, I read your posts and realized, that you do not know much about encryption. I am not an expert myself, but am aware of existing encrypting technologies, how they work and where they fail. The encryption used, would required the utilization of dictionaries and requires the original crypt key was well (which you might get from Haiko, when you plan to develop your own shopping plug-in) to find out anything, since even the person who encrypted the URL would not be able to decrypt it. Haiko must save the original URL separate from the encrypted URL given to the parasite to determine, if you are in the list or not.)

    Comment to the Idea, that parasites block your URL (or redirect) because you are on the list. I think and believe that your chances even at small claims court are very good, if a parasite attempts something like that. Even a non technical person (or judge) will understand, that a bouncer in front of a public place or store is illegal, if the bouncer is not employed by the place or store and if the bouncer is not enforcing other laws (such as parental control etc.).

    3.
    It refers to the previous post. Parasites know the original URL and know by checking against the List, that you are on it. So what! They may have such tracking in place already to see, which site generates how much traffic to merchants they are affiliated with. It does not change anything. Can they do tracking through the list, if they want to? YES! Can they do it without? YES!

    4.
    Cookie Overwrite. Yes, your cookie will be overwritten, if the Parasite gets triggered.
    It will be triggered by the Parasite (who complies with the TOS for the exclusion list), If the origination Site (Search Engine, Directory, other Site, other Affiliate or the Merchant URL itself) is not excluded.

    5.
    The submission program (to the list) will check the Who Is Record of the domain and send a confirmation email (response required) to the owner of the domain.
    A successful submission to the list will require a response to the Email (I hope a link with a code and not just a reply).
    The submission program also searches for Affiliate URLs and also recognizes Server Redirects etc. for Sites where the URL passes through a tracking page first (other than the one from the program provider).
    Recommendation! Skip that check. New Sites might do not have such links up yet. It might also cause problems and does not work correctly (Frames, Meta Refreshes, Server Redirects, JS Redirects etc. etc.) The check via Website owner should be enough, because it states: “I own Website ABC and I do not want, that any Parasite will do anything and make profit, if I link to Website XYZ. I do not care, if you are affiliated with them or not”. That will allow Affiliate-Hate Sites to participate as well (Hello Folks from DMOZ hehe).


    6.
    Are there alternatives? Yes. Add “affsrc=1” to every link.
    Stay putt and get your commission stolen, until the law catches up with reality.
    Do nothing, do what you do today, contact merchants and inform them. Drop merchants who are accepting and working together with Parasites willingly etc.

    7.
    Signing up for “The List” and Limitation to take legal steps against the Parasite.
    I do not see any conflict at all, even for the CoC. “The List: will be completely separate from the Issue itself. “The List” will be tool operated and utilized based on “good will”.
    There is no legal binding or restricting. I can be on the list and still take legal steps against the parasite who utilizes it. No legal issue, whatsoever.

    Haiko, Recommendations for the implementation of “The List”:

    The exclusion list should include all PPC Search Engines. This List should be public to allow users to notify you about a PPC Search Engine missed.
    The exclusion list should also include sponsored ads (such as Google Adwords), if technically possible.

    Merchants who wants to be excluded should have the option to make that public to allow affiliates and other interested entities to find out about it. TigerDirect and other Anti-Parasite Merchants would love that, to show their affiliates, where they stand.
    I am not sure yet, if I read all the post correctly, but my understanding is, that a merchant can also register his URL to say “no redirects, no pop-ups via Shopping Plug-Ins”. Is that correct?

    so that's it...

    Carsten

    Shop-Links.net Partner
    http://www.shop-links.net
    Sign-up for our Affiliate Program
    http://www.shareasale.com/shareasale...erchantID=2123

    If you can't move things, try harder!

    [This message was edited by Carsten, Shop-Links on January 23, 2003 at 02:36 AM.]

  2. #2
    Schlaumeier cumbrowski's Avatar
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    Uh.. I missed something .
    I like the idea about the Meta Tags to be included in "The List" automatically.
    However. I think that most Software Plugins (Parasites) are not able to do that.
    It's a serious additional option to "get clean" for the ones how can.

    A different thought. Most of the Parasites are based on Microsoft Technology.
    Browser companies (Microsoft, Opera, Netscape) should maybe also be addressed to read out a specific meta tag (such as "noshoppingplugins") and make it available to everybody who is using their SDK.

    Carsten

    Shop-Links.net Partner
    http://www.shop-links.net
    Sign-up for our Affiliate Program
    http://www.shareasale.com/shareasale...erchantID=2123

    If you can't move things, try harder!

  3. #3
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    Any idea how we can address that issue to MS or Netsc. or others?

    carneol

  4. #4
    Schlaumeier cumbrowski's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carneol:
    Any idea how we can address that issue to MS or Netsc. or others?
    carneol<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Contact them.
    The bigger you are, the bigger the chance that they listen to you.

    Haiko: you are a force in the industry.
    Use it and contact the companies who develop the tools to acces the content on the internet.
    Who knows, they may come up with an answer.

    Carsten

    Shop-Links.net Partner
    http://www.shop-links.net
    Sign-up for our Affiliate Program
    http://www.shareasale.com/shareasale...erchantID=2123

    If you can't move things, try harder!

  5. #5
    Schlaumeier cumbrowski's Avatar
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    You know what? ..
    I got an Idea. Worth to follow up.

    Websites whould have a TAG in their code and BROWERS should recognize them and make them available through their SDKs to trigger Parasite software to act (pop-up, link overwrite etc.) or not.

    The Shopping plugins are mainly an Issue of Microsoft Operating Systems and their Browser (IE), since they "integrated" the Browser into the operation system (and got legal issues because of that hehe).

    The Sofware provider (who is translating the information from the Webserver to be displayed on the users brower) should be on this boat as well.

    Thoughts anybody?

    Carsten

    Shop-Links.net Partner
    http://www.shop-links.net
    Sign-up for our Affiliate Program
    http://www.shareasale.com/shareasale...erchantID=2123

    If you can't move things, try harder!

  6. #6
    Schlaumeier cumbrowski's Avatar
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    Does anybody has some links to microsoft here?
    USEFULL Feedback is welcome and appreciated.

    Carsten

    Shop-Links.net Partner
    http://www.shop-links.net
    Sign-up for our Affiliate Program
    http://www.shareasale.com/shareasale...erchantID=2123

    If you can't move things, try harder!

  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Does anybody has some links to microsoft here?
    USEFULL Feedback is welcome and appreciated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Sure,
    -http://www.microsoft.com

    ----
    -J
    Merchants: Do you realize that some of your affiliates are being paid commission on sales which you have paid for via PPC, offline advertising, and your targeted mailings?

  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador CrazyGuy's Avatar
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    I have one remaining significant area of concern/confusion about this list which I haven't seen tackled elsewhere. I apologise if it is.

    There have been many references to the exclusion list being on ebates members' PCs. Has anyone who knows (Haiko?) actually said that's what is going to happen? I find it very hard to imagine - surely all parties (albeit for different reasons) would prefer this to be held centrally?

    Even compressed, this is going to be a big file. It's going to need regularly updated. What happens if a user deletes it? There is a slight possibility of it being misused.

    Seems to me this could have a big impact on how workable this is. So, my recommendation would be for this to be kept server-side.

    Anyone know for sure?

    Are you Crazy?

  9. #9
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    You are making an assumption where your legal rights are concerned. Two posts here saying that your rights are retained if you join this list involved non-contract lawyers. There are lawyers and there are lawyers. All have areas of expertise. I am no lawyer, but I am not getting too comfortable with what was posted.

    Some of your other statements may need to be reconsidered. A re-reading of some of the posts should put some doubt in some of your statements.

    Sometimes it is easy to read in what you want to hear and not actually what was truly said. Or, the post was vague leaving you room to draw any number of conclusions.

    I have seen many posts on this board where and individual misread what he or she was replying to. I want go into details as it would take too much time to go back and get specific instances and too much space to post them here.

    There have been numerous contradictions spoken or alluded to here concerning the three options to block parasites. That is what is disturbing.
    Especially if the first two work, then the third is entirely un-necessary.

    Gene
    TCS

  10. #10
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    Carston....

    You put some effort in your task and that is always welcomed.

    I don't much to say about your initial post and summary statements except in regards to

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>1. The list is not legally binding for any Parasite Software, even if they agree to acknowledge the List. However, they will loose a lot of credibility, if they agree and not realize the integration of it. Bad Press!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not necessarily. What bad press has come to date? Also, if the COC is not enforced and overwriting continues, the potential for bad press is much bigger than against them violating a simple abestweb proposal. You would get bad press against the three network providers and the parasites. This proposal puts all that at risk when being very near the cut off date for them having to come into compliance. For the reason the proposal has very bad timing and seems short sighted - it seems to nulify all efforts up to this point.

    Many have touted the Nov 7th meeting as a hugely positive step including Haiko, Shawn, Wayne and many others. To undermine the COC
    at this juncture is well..... very confusing and seems very short sighted.

    Now which will get more bad press with non enforcement? Its a no brainer!

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