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  1. #1
    ABW Ambassador JJJay's Avatar
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    I brought this up in the exclusion list Q&A and Buckworks also brought up the topic of Meta Tags, those threads have since closed so I'd like to know if Meta Tags could work, they work by blocking out MS Smart Tags, who not with parasites, Meta tags are small in size and can easily be added to anysite. See the Meta Tag to block MS Smart Tags below,

    <meta name="MSSmartTagsPreventParsing" content="TRUE">

    Meta Tags would put the webmaster in control of their content, which is probably something eBates is against, if eBates and the other parasites agreed to honor such a Meta Tag, Haikos exclusion list wouldn't be need. Meta Tags are a much simlpier solution. I've already emailed Shawn at OverStock asking him to put this idea to eBates. I can't see any reason why Meta Tags would not work.

  2. #2
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    The question would be where you want the meta tag placed.

    On an affiliate site, it wouldn't matter, because ebates take affect after a person leaves an affiliate site.

    On a merchant site, you're asking all merchants to program their site to detect an affiliate link, then insert a meta tag if there is one or something along those lines.

    Mark W
    GigaGolf

  3. #3
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JJJay:
    ...
    Meta Tags would put the webmaster in control of their content, which is probably something eBates is against, if eBates and the other parasites agreed to honor such a Meta Tag, Haikos exclusion list wouldn't be need.
    ...
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You answered your own question.

    There is no honor among thieves.

  4. #4
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    I think META tags could easily work and be much simpler for eBates to program. However, I dont think they would do it. If META tags were agreed on by eBates, the news would spread like wildfire and every affiliate around the world would use them. This would cut off a huge eBates income.

    The exclusion list is something eBates knows is going to be unpopular. Why should affiliates trust them when they have lied, lied and lied again? They know that very few affiliates (compared to worldwide count) will send in their web sites. If too many send them in, they will probably cap it.

    So yes they would and could work a treat, but eBates would not agree with it in my opinion.

    Andy Williams

    Keyword DARTs - New search engine optimization software
    http://www.affiliate-masters.co.uk/k...timization.htm

  5. #5
    ABW Ambassador Ron Bechdolt's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

    The exclusion list is something eBates knows is going to be unpopular. Why should affiliates trust them when they have lied, lied and lied again? They know that very few affiliates (compared to worldwide count) will send in their web sites. If too many send them in, they will probably cap it.


    Andy Williams

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Yes, this is just as bad as the code of conduct. In the end, it will probably make no difference.


    Ron - 7 Days A Week Marketing

    Every day is a chance to learn something new and an opportunity to teach others.

  6. #6
    ABW Ambassador JJJay's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The exclusion list is something eBates knows is going to be unpopular. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My exact thoughts, thats why they welcome Haikos list. Meta Tags are what we should all push for, Haiko included.

  7. #7
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    Agreeing and honoring is two different things.

    And that applies to meta tags, an exclusion list, or a simple statement such as was made at the Nov 7th meeting of "we will not overwrite links".

  8. #8
    ABW Ambassador JJJay's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by happypoon:
    Agreeing and honoring is two different things.".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That is where Shawn and OverStock step in, Shawn has already stated, "within 60 days we’ll be ParasiteWare free. I’ll say it again, I do not support parasites. I am actively working to help change them so they are no longer parasitic. If I can’t help them change, I will drop them."

    If the inclusion of Meta Tags is a viable solution then it should replace the exclusion list.

  9. #9
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    Something as simple as a meta tag solution would be great IF it could work.

    But, I agree that the parasites would not go along with anything that Really worked and was very Simple for Any affiliate to implement.

    As far as the "List" goes...Haiko has always stood firmly on the side of the affiliate. Apparently, he has reason to believe that the parasites will agree to it and Honor this.

    Some people have asked "Why would they agree to something like this, if it will take away from their bottom line?"

    Could it be that the Outcry here at ABW is getting a bit too loud for them?

    Could they be getting just a little bit concerned that the mainstream media will begin to give this issue More and More attention if the word continues to spread from here?

    You have to wonder if the reason they are doing this is simply an attempt to quite the uproar coming from ABW. Perhaps they think if they toss this affiliate community a bone they will all just shut up about it.

    Or maybe they have seen the light. They cannot live with their guilty conscience any longer. They are sorry for what they have done and want to turn over a new leaf.
    Yeah...that's it..all of a sudden they've turned honest. I gotta stop, my sides are hurting

  10. #10
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    I like the idea of using a simple meta tag..

    I hope this approach can be explored further.

    But I don't know how much more of this ebates will take. Apparently the bitterness between the affiliate community and ebates has cooled off.

    According to the NYT, both sides are happy with the list idea. So why should ebates implement yet another method that will have to be programmed and troubleshot.

  11. #11
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    .
    Meta tags were brought up at least as early as October last year. Haiko and others looked into this.

    Basically it wont work because the parasite software doesn't work off affiliate sites (including the html code), it works off urls.

    -- Less is more --

  12. #12
    Super Sh!t Stirrer SSanf's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> According to the NYT, both sides are happy with the list idea. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The Wolf Credo: Respect the elders. Teach the young. Cooperate with the pack. Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between. Share your affections. Voice your feelings. Leave your mark.

  13. #13
    ABW Ambassador JJJay's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cellophane:
    .
    Meta tags were brought up at least as early as October last year. Haiko and others looked into this.

    Basically it wont work because the parasite software doesn't work off affiliate sites (including the html code), it works off urls.

    -- _Less is more_ --<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm sure a little upgrade could sort that out!

  14. #14
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Basically it wont work because the parasite software doesn't work off affiliate sites (including the html code), it works off urls. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It might work off the url, but that does not work either. If it did, the afsrc=1, added to the url, would have worked.

  15. #15
    ABW Ambassador BareNecessities's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just a guy:
    Some people have asked "Why would they agree to something like this, if it will take away from their bottom line?"

    Could it be that the Outcry here at ABW is getting a bit too loud for them?

    Could they be getting just a little bit concerned that the mainstream media will begin to give this issue More and More attention if the word continues to spread from here?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Just my two cents.

    I think it was the reasons above combined with a slow steady number of merchants that looked at what they were doing, and chose not to continue to work with them.

    I still believe that ultimately, it will be up to the merchants to say to these companies. "You cannot pop-up on ANY of my other affiliate sales partners sites, and you cannot pop-up on my site! Period"

    The way to end all of this is for these companies to find their revenue stream drying up.

    Their revenue stream will not dry up as long as merchants are comfortable paying them.

    With that being said, everyone on ABW should stop picking on any of the merchants that participate here...even if they are still working with companies utilizing parasiteware. The merchants here have either dropped these companies, or they are working on getting these companies to change. ABW affiliate comments have been heard by every AM on this board, and usually the comments are heard about a hundred times.

    You really need to take all of your collective energy, and create a list of merchants, and one by one, EDUCATE them in mass.

    Don't threaten them. Don't say you are leaving. Don't say you are dropping them. Just make absolutely positively sure that the AM and the owner of each company really gets what is happening.

    I would bet that within three months, the group here at ABW could begin to reshape this entire arguement.

    Once the largest merchants on the web begin to wake up, things will change.

    That's my two + cents for the day.

    Michael

    Michael
    973-621-6211 x 5040
    michael(at)barenecessities.com

  16. #16
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
    That is where Shawn and OverStock step in, Shawn has already stated, "within 60 days we’ll be ParasiteWare free. I’ll say it again, I do not support parasites. I am actively working to help change them so they are no longer parasitic. If I can’t help them change, I will drop them."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>orignal quote from happypoon in question to Shawn:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    How can you say "Parasites are bad" and still partner with them. Does your last post indicate they aren't bad?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Reply from Shawn
    I have been actively working with many merchants, affiliates, and affiliate networks over the past 6 months to try to come up with workable solutions to ParasiteWare. The last offenders revolve around the TopMoxie software, which is close to being fixed, in my opinion. I will continue to work with them as long as they continue to fix the problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


  17. #17
    Web Ho - Design B!tch ~Michelle's Avatar
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimbo2002:
    It might work off the url, but that does not work either. If it did, the afsrc=1, added to the url, would have worked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Are you saying that the afsrc=1 does NOT work?

    ~Michelle

    ****************************
    "All I ask is a chance to prove that money can't make me happy."

    "Work to become, not to acquire." -- Confucius

  18. #18
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Are you saying that the afsrc=1 does NOT work? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sure, it works. Just not all the time.

    TopMoxie is supposed to detect affiliate links and not overwirte those. But sometimes it does not work either.

    That is why we now have three solutions.

  19. #19
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    Having read through most of the posts related to Haiko's exclusion list I can see how ABW has matured and gained a unified powerful voice. Small voices from both sides of the issue are beginning to sound like distant thunder indicating a impending storm. Makes me real proud to part of this forum where an artwork is being born. The individual brush strokes viewed closeup by themselves are meaningless until one steps back and see's how they contribute to the finished painting.

    This painting is about ecommerce and we all know that GREED is the primary driving force on the internet. The affiliate networks were born in the height of the .com bubble funded by seemingly endless amounts of VC/IPO monies to be squander on EyeBall traffic schemes. The advertising mindset of network management was focused on impressions and clicks with sales as a incidental byproduct. Low cost advertising was the recruitment tool for gathering in merchants. Willing Affiliate partners were a dime a dozen and only those who generated mass traffic got noticed and were catered to with reverence. Then came the .com bubble burst and the affiliate advertising marketplace was forced to change it's ways as hits migrated into demands for sales conversion ratios as PPC became a relic.

    The networks had to address an angry group of unpaid affiliates who refused to be ignored any longer. Over an extended period of time they threw us a bone to chew on by adding transparency into their reporting interfaces. Why? Because, without it, their promise to merchants of running an affiliate recruitment service was worthless. Pud's F**kedcompany.com site told the whole story long before the networks fessed up!

    But GREED and the twisted advertising mindset where not replaced by good business practices and ethics. Behind the scenes the networks were pissed at the angry mob and stymied by the loss of the mass traffic spenders and Super Affiliates littering Pud's Hall of Shame. They then knew that domain bound affiliates could not fill their merchants greedy desire for more mass traffic sources. How do you overcome the the limitations of affiliate domain generated traffic if your affiliate base is dwindling due to real trust and payment issues?

    Someone came up with the cure by suggesting marrying the intrusive popup porn Ad technology with "incent" affiliates and allow them to take download BHO Adware and forget about domain bound traffic. The morals were questionable by the participants right from the start, but the ends justified the means, and the first Theftwarez programs got mass installed by Freebee pushers and those P2P networks supporting copywrite theft. Plan was to install as much theftware by any means ASAP. The networks, behind the closed doors, developed the software to automate and monitize all theftware applications. Why. So they could increase their take on commission splits from a new breed of software only affiliates who were not bound by rules or shackled to a domain address.

    The company they chose to keep for this scheme has come back to haunt them. The hard way out of a delima requiring merchant AM's to address conversion issues was bypassed. The B-a-HO sharks were silently snuck into the affiliate pond and now threaten to bite the pool owners as they pick clean the affiliate carcuses and feed off the merchant's links too. OH if only there was a way to silence the ABW critics as some of the theftware supported perps are appearing in courtrooms with full media coverage.

    No amount of spin or diversion tactics will ever convience us that these preditor sharks aren't still planning on feeding off those who swim in this pool. Hell they are having problems setting up lifeguard stations to warn swimmers on the sharks they planted there, since they refuse to say they exist. Why not just kill the buggers by pulling all "incent" autoloads and make the merchant AM's go to work on making better creatives and landing pages. Either that or arrange to pull their teeth before allowing them into the pond. I applaud Haiko's attempt on on least putting some shark repellant into the hands of some of the swimmers, but I don't have faith in that stop gap cure when the frenzied shark attacks are filling the pond with blood of their other victims. Like a sharks appetite there is no limit on the GREED that powers the internet and is rampant within the affiliate community.

    Remove the greed mongers and forget the delaying tactics which buy them more time to hide their real purpose...money for nothing. These are the affiliates not willing to put up web sites that feature merchants real shopping cart items or network generated and trackable impressions and clicks. Why isn't this simple? Because those protecting the bank vault are in cahoots with the would be robbers.

    Unplug the network incent autofeeds, which are the life support for the commission preditors and this whole issue is moot. If a damn merchant is too lazy to run their own loyality program 100% internally, then they do not deserve their repeat customers. Till then they'll get double dipped by the Dupers, which will eventually force them to cleanse themselves of all BHO parasites.

    I'll signup my domains for the exclusion list and at the same time demand from the networks they openly publish their list of known BHO affiliates. Stop hiding the sharks and make the finished picture a work of art.

    Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! Where's the love and show me the money?

  20. #20
    ABW Ambassador Nova's Avatar
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    Hey Mike,

    Where you been?

    I was starting to wonder :-(

    I hope all is well with you.

    Love Life to the fullest. we only get ONE chance! :-)

  21. #21
    ABW Ambassador Ron Bechdolt's Avatar
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    Mike,

    Great post! Right on the money (excuse the pun).

    Ron - 7 Days A Week Marketing

    Every day is a chance to learn something new and an opportunity to teach others.

  22. #22
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    &lt;meta name="AffiliateWithAnAttitude" content="TRUE"&gt;

    The meta tag fits in better with the design of the internet. For the most part, it is a distributed network. Of course, the list is kind of like a new DNS for affiliates.

    The tag could work from a technical point of view. They would need to parse the HTML header along with the HTTP header. No biggie.

    The down side of the meta tag is that web crawlers will see the tag as well. The Meta Tag tells search engines that you are an affiliate. Imagine if the Google algorithm decided this was a negative.

    Of course, you can tell some is an affiliate marketer by the links they keep.

    The parasites will be more than willing to accept and code for either plan we offer, because they know either plan will pay off. They may code for both.

    The whole point of both plans is to create a protected market, leaving the rest of the market to the wolves. They know the protected market will be smaller than the exposed market.

    Either plan substantially increases their market share.

    Here are the variables involved in the math:

    iMerchants = Number of merchants that are willing to do business with the parasites. (This figure is difficult to measure. It is not just the number of merchants who would start up again with eBates, but includes the number of merchants who would otherwise drop them.)

    iCust = the number of customers they lose because angry affiliates talk people into remove their software. (legitimizing eBates creates more customers. Will people on the list stop educating users? Most likely yes.)

    iLegal = The exclusion list reduces the likelihood and cost of litigation. It also increases the chance of winning litigation.

    iNewParasites - The number of new parasites that will move into this new ABW-List approved parasite market. (Once it is a legitimized market, expect more players to enter. We might even see AOL or MSN join the fun.)

    On the negative side, you can put the percentage of the market that the parasites lose due to the list.

    iLost = the percentage of the market Haiko's list blocks.

    iFailedAffs = Since the list increases the feeding of non-protected sites you can include on the positive side the number of non-protected affilaites going bust:

    You can do this type of simulation in Excel. The math is simple. Just create a spreadsheet in excel and put each of these variables in Excel.

    Try running the numbers from the parasites point of view:

    The plusses come in the form of more merchants accepting eBates, customers that no longer refuse to use eBates, a reduction in legal risks, etc..

    The minuses of the program is the percentage of the market that Haiko contacts and converts to using the tags or list, along with the affiliates that fail and drop out because of the list.

    When you sum up the positives and the negatives, you will find that Haiko will either have to an impossibly large number of the affiliate market on his his list or using the meta tags.

    We already see PotentMix down on his hands and knees begging people not to join the list. He knows that this pact means doom to thousands of small web sites. I expect many web sites will even start promoting ebates. If he is protected, then he knows that eBates will hurt his competition.

    It is like the Christians who didn't mind watching the Nazi's haul off the Jews. They got the benefit of the confiscated property, and felt safe...they were protected.

    I know I've burned up any respect I have had on this board, but, please, do the simulations. The parasites are more than happy to comply with either the list or the meta tag.

    I favor the list because it clearly places this fiasco at Haiko's feet. It will also be easier to reverse when the processes has gone seriously wrong.

    In a year from now, when the parasites have increased their market share and have been able to use his list to ward off lawsuits, he will finally realize he did more harm than good. He might run some numbers himself and destroy the list.

  23. #23
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I know I've burned up any respect I have had on this board, but, please, do the simulations. The parasites are more than happy to comply with either the list or the meta tag.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    How could expect to gain respect with such a stupid and outlandish post?

    I don't think you have any problems to worry about (other than the shady networks, parasites, merchants who participate with them, the shady ones that dont even participate with them and...... the affiliates who cator to causing cahos and can't see past the tip of their nose or past a putting few bucks in their wallet).

    You seem in good shape if you ask me.

  24. #24
    ABW Ambassador JJJay's Avatar
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    Just wondering... Since neither Haiko or any of the other high profile members at ABW have commented on the Meta Tag solution/thread, I'm wondering if this is indeed a feasible solution. Its looks like some people are happy to see this thread die away so they can go ahead and work on the "exclusion list". In my opinion the "exclusion list" is a very limited solution, only a couple thousand domains will take advantage/be allowed onto the list. ABW members please don't let this thread die, ASK QUESTIONS, DEMAND ANSWERS.

  25. #25
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    JJ this thread will not just die. Merchants are going to have to make up their minds if they want to force commissionable affiliates to actually make pre-sell promotion pages to target and entice shoppers. This IS the value add portion they should demand in exchange for a commission. BHO's will never add targeting to specific products nor ever get involved in branding or impressions. They are all about hijacking already conditioned traffic and planting cookies by offering some reward or coupon rather than playing the HTML affiliate game from their own domains.

    Once merchant's see they cannot limit the commission thievery or payouts to the BHO wanks by shortening cookies and they pay extra commission rates to those who do no merchnat advertising they might wake up and demand all incented traffic be excluded from participating in their programs.

    Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! Where's the love and show me the money?

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