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  1. #1
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    ...after watching and listening intently over the past few weeks concerning all thing Iraq, I have come to the conclusion that we should just say screw it, move all our troops back home, and let the bastard do as he will in the Middle-East.

    What is happening worldwide is so damned transparent, that only a fool would not recognize the tactics of the Germans, France, Russia, Belgium, etc...

    For years, these folks have resented the United States for a miriad of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that we are indeed the only world-power left with all the resources at hand; fossil fuel, food, manufacturing, etc.

    Now, they have decided in their infinate wisdom (sarcasm abounds) to take us down a peg. Well, I say let 'em. As a matter of fact, that large rectangular building which now houses the United Nations would look very good in Moscow - without out presence. As for NATO, screw them too. I say we pull out of both.

    Then, the next time one of these demonic dictators with a chip on his shoulder and bombs in his arsenal decided to blow the hell out of Paris, Berlin or Moscow - BOOM!

    As for the peaceniks, and those who think of the United States as nothing but a bully. I say we turn over a new leaf. No bullying at all. As a matter of fact - no nothing, period!

    Most of our so-called allies are store-bought, and they can go to hell with the rest.

    Bring the troops home, and screw the other countries!

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  2. #2
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    Second that.

    -- Less is more --

  3. #3
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    And another thing for carneol...

    You said:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sorry, but your President is a cowboy believing the world is Texas, and his support of a war is definitively the contrary to assure saftey in the USA. And why is he attacing a weak country and not a strong like North Corea or Pakistan. They all have a much bigger interest to support terrorists - and already did it - than Iraq. This is a sign of weakness and not a sign of strength which your President announces.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Have you ever been to Texas? The United States? Do you even know what a cowboy does for a living? Do you even have a damned clue as to what you are saying as it pertains to Iraq, when you say "...why is he attacing [sic] a weak country..."?

    Iraq, under the dictitorial leadership of Saddam, is anything but a weak country. If you didn't have your head buried under the sand of idiotic rhetoric, you might be able to understand this. Obviously, you lack the intellectual wherewithall to contemplate, while having the limited keyboard skills to obsfucate.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  4. #4
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    Don't give up on us, Obstinatedon, you're one of the pillars of wisdom in this forum...
    I believe you've experienced war, which I haven't, nor most of the rest of us who post our armchair opinions, which gives you some authority in the matter.
    I guess I'm what you call a peacenik.
    I might actually take up arms if anybody was marching in our streets raping our women etc
    but this war with Iraq?
    We are taking this to them, and setting in motion an action which will lead to loss and suffering on both sides... is it really necessary or justified? We can't fight terrorism by acting like terrorists ourselves.

  5. #5
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    I hate to say it, but I agree with the above statements. We give money and food to all these nations. The ones that burn me most are some of the middle east countries...we give them breaks in the cost of food and other manufactured goods we send there....in return, we get outrageous gas prices. I say give us the same cut in price for oil that we give you in food. If not, let the US use its own resources and see how fast a tomato plant grows in the desert.

    I am fed up with people being critical of the US....I too say that we bring out troops home...put them on the border and let them protect the homeland.

    As for Sadam....why is there any doubt that he would use chemical or biological weapons....he has already done it and what would stop him from doing it again. We should pull out and let Sadam do what Sadam is going to do. It is troubling that people want a 'smoking gun'. Problem with a smoking gun is it is after the fact...the U.S is trying to prevent a smoking gun.

    One thing that I'm confused about that the rest of the world doesn't seem to understand...there are sanctions against Iraq, until he destroyed his weapons of mass destruction. Put yourself in his shoes...if the world had sanctions against you....wouldn't you be on the phone with everyone at the U.N saying 'Come here and watch us destroy these weapons...then lift the sanctions'. We are expected to take Sadams word that he destroyed them, but there has been no evidence of it.

    I'm waiting to see the faces of the rest of the world when the war with Iraq is over. That is when the truth will come out and the U.S will be vindicated....mass graves...entire towns destroyed and murdered...political prisoners (and their families including children) tortured. This will all come out in the end, and the blood of all these victims will be not only on the hands of Sadam, but on the French and Germans as well.

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  6. #6
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    I'm sure the Iraqi people are suffering terribly at the hands of Sadam.
    Anything we do now will only add to their misery.
    The only thing we could do to relieve the suffering of the Iraqi people is to lift the sanctions.

  7. #7
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    Hello Radegast....

    You have made a couple points that I need to refute.

    One: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We can't fight terrorism by acting like terrorists ourselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Please tell me you didn't really mean to say this in that manner. We are not acting like terrorists under any circumstance.

    Secondly, you said: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The only thing we could do to relieve the suffering of the Iraqi people is to lift the sanctions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    We have had a program in place for over a decade that offers food and medical supplies for oil. It has been proven (and not by the United States this time) that he has taken the foodstuffs and traded them for military equipment, and bank accounts.

    He doesn't give a damn about "his" people. His sect is in the minority in Iraq, and he has shown time and again that he is willing to imprison, maim and murder his fellow countrymen and women.

    Lifting the sanctions under his leadership does nothing but give him more power.

    As to me being a combat vet; yes I was. I was during a time; much like today, when the uninformed - or just hardheaded, have decided that rather than get informed, they would rather march, burn the American flag, burn our President in effigy, etc. I have seen all this before. Never again, say I.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  8. #8
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    Unfortunately, I believe lifting the sanctions will do nothing but promote more misery for them. A prime example is the food for oil program. Not only is food included, but medicine and other necessities. These never even make it to the Iraqi people because it is in Sadams control to disperse it to the people....that never happens..instead, he is building city size palaces that are lined with gold.

    It appears that Don and I posted at the same time, and of course Don said it best

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  9. #9
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    - - - - -
    I'm waiting to see the faces of the rest of the world when the war with Iraq is over. That is when the truth will come out and the U.S will be vindicated....mass graves...entire towns destroyed and murdered...political prisoners (and their families including children) tortured. This will all come out in the end, and the blood of all these victims will be not only on the hands of Sadam, but on the French and Germans as well.
    - - - - -

    I agree completely.

    Time Is A Parasite's Friend

  10. #10
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    I'm sure we will manage perfectly on our own, and I suspect that mainland EU will accelerate the creation of a European Army as a result of the recent events.

    But I wont say "go back home". I love Americans, I run into them them all the time during the summer and we always have nice chats. Some of you start off with an insecure "Do you like Americans?", but we get along great from there on.


    When it comes to America and Europe, I think that the key question is: Shouldn't the US, believing so strongly in democracy and the legitimacy of the majority in local, statewide and national elections, also respect the majority opinion of other democracies throughout the world?

    I saw Rumsfeldt on television doing a press conference the other day, answering questions about the current NATO disagreement. According to him, since 16 out of 19 NATO countries supported increasing the defence of Turkey right away instead of waiting for a resolution in the Security Council, the opposing 3 countries should obviously step aside and not use their veto power since they were in minority. I would have liked to ask him if the same principle didn't apply to the US in the current debate about what to do with Iraq, since an overwhelming number of democratic countries are against a military attact on the country. I guess obviuously not. Obviously an overwhelming international majority risk "irrelevance" in cases where the US is part of (or make up) the minority.

    Or maybe he would just have said that it's the US being attacked, forgetting that the fundamentalists are just as opposed to Europe, and that Europe has had terror groups for decades, since long before America even knew the true meaning of the word. Being in minority actually means you don't get what you want, unless you turn the principle of democracy upside down.


    The new buzz word of the administration, "risking irrelevance", is actually quite interesting. I'm going to use it on my merchants from now on:

    "If you don't stop reversing sales, you risk irrelevance"
    "If you don't increase commissions, you risk irrelevance"
    "If you don't drop ebates, you risk irrelevance"

    Now, that should take care of it. Problem solved

    -- Less is more --

  11. #11
    Domain Addict / Formerly known as elbowcreek Thomas A. Rice's Avatar
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    Oh, and by the way, when President Bush pledged 400 million dollars to help fight the AIDS epidemic in Africa, how many people around the world took to the streets to thank the U.S.?

    Oh, I remember, that would be 0.

    You see, thanking us for fighting the Aids crisis in someone else's country doesn't fit into their stereotype of the U.S. as an evil, dominating country, so they don't acknowledge it.

    Time Is A Parasite's Friend

  12. #12
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm waiting to see the faces of the rest of the world when the war with Iraq is over. That is when the truth will come out and the U.S will be vindicated....mass graves...entire towns destroyed and murdered...political prisoners (and their families including children) tortured. This will all come out in the end, and the blood of all these victims will be not only on the hands of Sadam, but on the French and Germans as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    So you're looking for mass graves? "The Children are Dying" reports that as a consequence of the economic sanctions, 567,000 children in Iraq have died since August 1990. Currently over 6,000 Iraqi infants are starving to death each month. Make no mistake: those deaths are on our hands.

  13. #13
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    Obstinatedon,
    dont worry about my intellect. Your statement on what I said makes it clearfor me that there must be a wide censsorship in the medias concerning everything on Iraq. It is definitively a weak country believe it. It is the weakest country in that region. Look at Syria - supporting terrorists but strong, look at Pakistan - supporting terrorists but strong, look at Iran - supporting terrorists, but strong, and this chain could be set on and on. You say " screw it up " this is a possible way. But then take too home the CIA and the biological and chemical weapons the USA distributed in the whole world. What kind of policy is it to support terrorists and dictators as your politicians did? And again I say: we are not critical to the USA nor against the US people, but against your administration. The administration is not the country. And if you would be objective: look what this administration did with your country.
    Concerning "cowboys": no I have never been in Texas, but as a kid I admired all actors in the cowboy movies. lol. And of course my father was in Texas as a PW .

    THMedia you are very cynicf course we never supported AlKaida, nor Bin Laden nor Saddam. This is only done by the USA. Saddam would never be dictator in his country if the USA didn't support him in the 70th, and after he got President the USA sent him VX gas, anthrax, and all kind of chemikal and bioligical weapons to support his fight against Iran. If the blood of the victims of Saddam will come over someone it will be the USA. But again I make a difference between the citizens and the administration. And those have not learned anything. They are going to support dictators and terrorist again and again. SOme of the Asian and African countries which were allies in the "fight against terrorism " are even worse dictators than Saddam. Millions and Millions of people were and are killed in Africa by governments which were supported by the USA and other "civilised" countries.
    And what if the war angainst Iraq is over, and they do not find what the USA suspected to find? What are your politicians and your soldiers then?
    I personally am not opposite to a war against Saddam if this would assure that the troops then were send all around the world to defeat dictators where they can be found. If not, the issue to fight against Iraq is a different one.

    carneol

  14. #14
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    Obstinatedon
    When I said 'acting like terrorists ourselves' I meant we are going to be using weapons of mass destruction in another country in a conflict we instigated. Bombs don't discriminate - men, women, children are going to die. This conflict isn't forced upon us, to defend anything sacred to us.
    (Unless it really is a necessary act to combat international terrorism - I'm not convinced of that but am willing to be persuaded.)
    Maybe I was naive to think lifting sanctions would relieve the suffering of the Iraqi people.
    I have no illusions about Sadam's treatment of his own people.
    My 'acting like terrorists' comment seems to have annoyed you most - wasn't my intention. I think if we throw bombs that kill women and children when we don't have to, in a conflict we decide is necessary, that isn't so very different from the IRA, for instance, setting off a bomb in a crowded marketplace.
    I've learnt something from this thread.

  15. #15
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    I take back my last comment. There is a huge difference between inadvertently killing innocent people in a conflict and deliberately setting off a bomb designed to do the most damage to the most number of people in times of peace.

  16. #16
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    Radegast - lift sanctions? When Saddam wanted to rub our nose it - he withheld all production for a month. If the current sanctions are so devastating, wouldn't that month of complete withdrawl have destroyed the country? How can he spend so much on monuments to himself if the sanctions left them with nothing?

    carneol - it is widely held belief that Iraq owns the fourth strongest military in the world. Can you please post one of these great uncensored sources (i love that people think american's can't read the bbc online etc), that states iraq has a weak military. Please, find one credible news source. They are the strongest military in that region, to think otherwise shows your ignorance of the region.

    Chet

  17. #17
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    Radegast, when people speak of collateral damage, you know they are speaking of a civilized nation. Because we CAN have collateral damage. Terrorists cannot - they just have targets.

  18. #18
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    Ok, now I feel obliged to jump into this political debate. I personally do not support military action against Iraq, and I’ll tell you why. The scenario as I see it, is that currently we have a weakened dictator in Iraq. Even with the chemical weapons that he possesses, he is definitely in a much weaker state than he was in 1988. He wants to develop more weapons of mass destruction. He would even sell those weapons if he could, but with UN inspectors crawling around, he’s not going to be able to make a move without them finding out about it. He knows this. His main concern now is to protect the stockpile he currently has. Any attempt to produce more chemical, biological, or to produce a nuclear weapon would be too risky for him. So he will attempt to maintain the status quo.

    Now if we remove the weakened Saddam Hussein from power, what happens? A political vacuum in Baghdad draws the three main factions in Iraq and their regional allies into conflict. The Shiites in the south supported by Iran. The Sunni in the middle supported by Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and probably the US and Britain. And the Kurds in the north supported by the Kurds in Turkey. Each of these factions will see this as an opportunity to either gain control of Iraq or succeed and form their own nation. This will lead to an all out civil war that without substantial US military presence will spill over to neighboring countries. Even then, there is a good chance that the conflict would spread. If the conflict did spread, I would not be surprised to see civil war break out between the recognized governments of Saudi Arabia and Egypt vs. Bin Laden supported groups within those countries.

    Now the US military is tied down in Afghanistan and Iraq. It’s also trying to slow the spread of Islamic Fundamentalism in the region. What happens then when North Korea decides to sell one of their Nuclear Devices (and we know for a fact that they have around 6 nukes I believe) to a terrorist organization? The bomb Don spoke of would not be detonated in Moscow or Paris, but in DC or New York. Could even the US military fight a war in Korea, The Middle East, and maintain a presence in Afghanistan? I doubt that even the US military could handle a war on 2 and a half fronts. What I’m saying is let the inspectors continue to tie down Saddam Hussein and keep the military free to deal with the bigger threat, which is North Korea.

    Now let me take a moment to take a jab at France. Look back at their military accomplishments of the past century. They saw the Germans coming and surrendered. Then they conspired with Israel and Britton to capture the Suez Canal, that didn’t quite go the way they had planned. And let us not forget, France was fighting in Vietnam long before the US got into it. As a nation, they don’t have what you might call a positive military history. Not since Napoleon that is. And don’t get me started on the Germans.

    To sum up this long post, North Korea is a much bigger threat to the US than Iraq could hope to be. We should deal with this rouge nation that has a verified nuclear arsenal before we do anything in Iraq. And in military matters, France has no credibility.

    Jason
    “That’s the song I’ve been sangin for years, that’s the way the wild wind blows” – Robert Earl Keen

  19. #19
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    The number of troops is not everything. In Iraq war nr.1 the Iraq had about 550.000 troops. After the war the allies lost 343 soldiers the Iraq 150.000. We here see a lot of information directly from our reporters in the Iraq and we see troops armed with weapons before WW2. We see women and girls with guns older than themselves. Concerning the Iraqy armee all US and EU and NATO Generals have said the same: They will not fight for Saddam except about 30.000 soldiers of the National Gards. The Iraqian army once was the 4th biggest in the world that is true but all intelligence and military checks show that they only have 1/3 of its strength now. And the equipment is ridiculous. If you want I can give you the sources. They are in German and some are translated into Geman from US sources.

    carneol

  20. #20
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    I personally will support USA if it comes to a war, and I think our government will do the same. The American administration espc. Rumsfeld said that everybody who is against a war is against USA. To say this is as stupid as one can be, and to my shame his grand-grand parents came from Germany. But before it comes to a war we are forced by human issues to try everything to avoid it. I strongly believe that this war will do a lot of damage to the whole world and a lot of victims will be found not only in the USA but all over the world. Look at Israel. What you see there will be the thing all around the world. Some seriouse hurting words were spoken here, and I fear that if the discussion goes on more of these will come up. I have decided to no more post on this issue as long as every other opinion a person has is considered to be against the USA. This makes me very sad.

    carneol

  21. #21
    2005 Linkshare Golden Link Award Winner  ecomcity's Avatar
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    I agree in part with NewCastles observations and think GWB is taking the gamble that the world and the ME can't remain at odds like they have for 50 years. Time to upset the Arab despots applecart and allow the Arab street to take action to throw over their dictatorial rulers. Moderate Muslims might even take to hanging some radical Clerics and the murderers running the call to Jehad from some lampposts in Seria -Jordan -Eqypt -Lebenon -Iran -Suadi Arabia -Pakistan who strive to enslave their followers in a time warp.

    Everywhere you look some Islamic group is trying to grab land for an independent state because they cannot live with their infidel neighbors in peace. Might as well pitt them against each other as they are very adept at killing their own. The Jordanians had no qualms on slaughtering 30K Palistians in 3 days before their was a Israel. The US and alliance forces can just offer to pick up the pieces and restore order as Arab Oil money has only one purpose now. Buying WMD from sources like N. Korea -Pakistan and Soviet satellite countries rather than feeding and educating their populace.

    Charlie ...

    If they won't adopt and feed a bird ..flip them one! BBQ some Gator and remember to flush WhenU..

  22. #22
    ABW Ambassador Radegast's Avatar
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    What a crazy world we live in.

  23. #23
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    Although I'm against the war I'm sick of this debate. after reading the posts here I say too, screw it all. okey go for it attack Iraq, whatever. and carry the burden of this war and its consequences afterwards just tick a new x for Iraq on your scoreboard.

    ps. if US pulls out all of its military power back to homeland, there wont be any US at least as a superpower. Please get some intl. affairs info beforehand if not trying to be sarcastic[which in this case I seem to miss]..

    iucpxleps. &lt;= please spell this, it's the meaning of life.

  24. #24
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    carneol...

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have decided to no more post on this issue as long as every other opinion a person has is considered to be against the USA<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Call me old-fashioned, but when one from any other country attacks my President by calling him names; in my opinion - that person is indeed against the USA.

    I have spent a great deal of time in Germany (I believe that is where you stated you are - forgive me if I am wrong), and found that, for the most part, the people were generous to a fault, lively in debate, and just plain fun to be around. I must admit however, that this was in the 60's and 70's, when folks just tended to be of a different breed world-wide.

    Today however, when I see the rabid German youth on TV (and yes, I do get those channels via satellite), spouting hateful rhetoric towards us - it is generally AMERICA he/she is ranting against, not just the administration.

    As for my original post on this thread, I still fully believe that I am rapidly becoming an isolationist.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

  25. #25
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    Hello Nit...

    The last part of your nick isn't "wit" is it?

    You said:

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>ps. if US pulls out all of its military power back to homeland, there wont be any US at least as a superpower. Please get some intl. affairs info beforehand if not trying to be sarcastic<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If this is directed at me, I would venture to guess that my international affairs background vastly exceeds most of those posting here, including yourself.

    Frankly, I don't care if the U.S. is a superpower any longer. I never cared.

    I just care that morons the world over happen to make idiotic misjudgements about my country based upon some ridiculous bias without benefit of intellect or experience.

    Obstinatedon

    You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.

    Mahatma Gandhi

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