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  1. #1
    Merchant & ABW Ambassador
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    Ex-PM killed at rally...
    Just heard this on NPR as I was driving to work. Pretty messed up...

    Ex-Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto was assassinated Thursday at a political rally, two months after she returned from eight years of exile to attempt a political comeback, officials said.

    Bhutto was shot at close range as she was leaving the rally in this garrison city south of Islamabad, aides said. Immediately after the shooting, a suicide bomber detonated explosives near Bhutto's car, killing at least 15 other people.

    Bhutto was rushed to a hospital with extensive wounds to her torso, her supporters said. Shortly after she arrived at the hospital, an official came out of the building and told a crowd of supporters Bhutto was dead.

    Also Thursday, a rooftop sniper opened fire on supporters of former prime minister Nawaz Sharif at a different pre-election rally in Rawalpindi, leaving four dead and at least five injured.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...122700452.html

  2. #2
    Grandma broke her coccyx! Uncle Rico's Avatar
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    I heard that as well this morning. The whole middle east is a mess and will continue to be a mess despite the crazy expectations of peace our current president holds.

  3. #3
    ABW Ambassador purplebear's Avatar
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    Yea, I heard that as well. Very sad
    Used to think it was possible for peace over there about 10 years or so ago cos it was encouraging seeing Ireland more at peace when I hadn't thought that was possible and think at the time there were serious efforts being made, but agree it doesn't look very promising now at all.

  4. #4
    Affiliate Manager MINDsprinter's Avatar
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    An off the cuff prediction:

    Pakistan, with its nuclear weapons, dictatorial president, extremist factions, and political violence will end up being much more of a world problem in the future than even places like Iraq or Afghanistan.
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  5. #5
    Grandma broke her coccyx! Uncle Rico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MINDsprinter
    An off the cuff prediction:

    Pakistan, with its nuclear weapons, dictatorial president, extremist factions, and political violence will end up being much more of a world problem in the future than even places like Iraq or Afghanistan.
    Yes indeed. In my own opinion, for what it's worth, Iraq was never a real threat.

  6. #6
    ABW Founder Haiko de Poel, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Archduke Ferdinand is all that went through my mind when I saw this at the Gym.

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  7. #7
    ABW Ambassador La_Valette's Avatar
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    Archduke Ferdinand is all that went through my mind when I saw this at the Gym.
    Indeed. I'm redoubling my digging efforts to get the nuclear shelter finished by the end of the year. I've already got the broadband connection all set up down there so I can continue with AM as usual while the rest of the world goes to hell in a handbasket...

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  8. #8
    Moderator MichaelColey's Avatar
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    I have it on good authority that tracking will not be affected.
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  9. #9
    ABW Ambassador beachcom's Avatar
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    Then the shooter set off a suicide bomb killing himself and at least 15 others. What a coward.

  10. #10
    Beachy Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by La_Valette
    ...the only question I have is: if there is nuclear war, will tracking remain functional?
    Only at LS and CJ - at least that's what we keep hearing when everything else goes belly-up.




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  11. #11
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    I see parallels with the assassination of Ahmed Shah Massoud on Sep 9 2001 by Saudi activists.

    The Massoud action removed a base of resistance in Afghanistan before an attack on the USA. I don't foresee an imminent attack, but an anchor of freedom and democracy has certainly been removed in Pakistan.

  12. #12
    Life is Supposed to be Fun! Rexanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachcom
    Then the shooter set off a suicide bomb killing himself and at least 15 others. What a coward.
    I find it difficult to think of someone who blows him/herself up as a coward. It seems it would take great courage to do that.
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  13. #13
    ABW Ambassador meadowmufn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexanne
    I find it difficult to think of someone who blows him/herself up as a coward. It seems it would take great courage to do that.
    IMO, it takes greater courage to face the consequences of your actions. By blowing himself up, it's over in an instant and fairly painless for him, instead of wasting away in jail or facing the angry mob that resulted after his murderous actions.
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  14. #14
    Moderator BurgerBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexanne
    I find it difficult to think of someone who blows him/herself up as a coward. It seems it would take great courage to do that.
    Or brain washed and on crack.

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  15. #15
    Super Dawg Member Phil Kaufman aka AffiliateHound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexanne
    I find it difficult to think of someone who blows him/herself up as a coward. It seems it would take great courage to do that.
    The person who did this acted the same as a suicide bomber, acting on behalf of a militant Islamist fundamentalist cause, in this case, protecting the dictatorship of Parvez Musharraf, against the one popular hero who could defeat him in next month's election.

    This killer was seeking martyrdom, protecting the continuity of Musharraf's fundamentalist regime, and with the promise of having his sins forgiven and a place reserved for him in paradise.

    He had neither courage nor intelligence nor common sense.
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  16. #16
    Affiliate Manager Alan Hamilton's Avatar
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    My heart goes out to Bhutto's family, and those brave people of Pakistan who are committed to bringing democracy to their country. Mr. Jones, excellent comparison my friend.

    Reading up on the evolution of the effort to bring democracy to Pakistan and / or living it first hand gives one a much different perspective than agenda driven / sound-bite media reports.

    A very brave woman, who placed love of her country and love of her people, ahead of her own convenience and safety has shown what real courage is all about. I praise her commitment to a free Pakistan.
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  17. #17
    Life is Supposed to be Fun! Rexanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffiliateHound
    The person who did this acted the same as a suicide bomber, acting on behalf of a militant Islamist fundamentalist cause, in this case, protecting the dictatorship of Parvez Musharraf, against the one popular hero who could defeat him in next month's election.

    This killer was seeking martyrdom, protecting the continuity of Musharraf's fundamentalist regime, and with the promise of having his sins forgiven and a place reserved for him in paradise.

    He had neither courage nor intelligence nor common sense.
    Suicide bombers or killers in general are scum of the earth, no doubt. I just don't get the association of calling them cowards. A$$holes, d*uchbags, d!ckheads, yes, but cowards ... I don't get it.
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  18. #18
    Affiliate Manager Alan Hamilton's Avatar
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    The difference Rex is that a coward does not possess the courage to defend his / her cause / actions etc or face the consequence. We saw that last year at Platte Canyon high school, and years before at Columbine, as well as many other places every year.

    To press a button or pull a trigger that creates instant painless escape requires no bravery at all. Any coward who wants to run away from his/her actions or lot in life can do that. To be exiled twice, re-elected twice after being exiled, be under constant threat of assasination and continue the selfless commitment to improving life for others is truly an ultimate act of bravery.
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  19. #19
    ABW Ambassador meadowmufn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Hamilton
    To press a button or pull a trigger that creates instant painless escape requires no bravery at all. Any coward who wants to run away from his/her actions or lot in life can do that. To be exiled twice, re-elected twice after being exiled, be under constant threat of assasination and continue the selfless commitment to improving life for others is truly an ultimate act of bravery.
    Exactly. Very well said, Alan. I hope, for peace and democracy's sake, that there are a host of others who are willing to step up and continue her work.
    -Don't criticize anyone til you've walked a mile in their shoes. Then when you do criticize them, you'll be a mile away and have their shoes.
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  20. #20
    Life is Supposed to be Fun! Rexanne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Hamilton
    The difference Rex is that a coward does not possess the courage to defend his / her cause / actions etc or face the consequence. We saw that last year at Platte Canyon high school, and years before at Columbine, as well as many other places every year.

    To press a button or pull a trigger that creates instant painless escape requires no bravery at all. Any coward who wants to run away from his/her actions or lot in life can do that. To be exiled twice, re-elected twice after being exiled, be under constant threat of assasination and continue the selfless commitment to improving life for others is truly an ultimate act of bravery.
    Thanks Dad. Now I can begin to make sense of the word association.
    Peace,

    Rexanne

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  21. #21
    Affiliate Manager Alan Hamilton's Avatar
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    You are welcome young lady. Your courage in seeking insight is commendable!!
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  22. #22
    ABW Ambassador Sam Bay's Avatar
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    A sad cost of fighthing for democracy and freedom.

    Archduke Ferdinand reference is, I think, over-reaching because there are no real frictions between sects of states, only within countries themselves or governments and terrorist organizations. A civil war, however, may be boiling within Pakistan.

    Suicide bombing itself is a cowardly attack for the way it's undertaken, but I would think it would take a tremendous courage for the perpetrators to bring themselves to do it, however brain-washed they are or whatever their cause is.
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  23. #23
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    I actually watched a documentary on this (Suicide Killers). (the movies i wanted were short wait, long wait on netflix and the movie wasn't really that good)

    So again have to disagree on the courage part because of the brainwashing, this is something that they feel brings them pleasure and they are moving on to something better. Think of something in your life that brings you pleasure, let's say a massage. Is it courageous to get one? Now that's drastic to reasonable people comparing that to suicide but these people really, really believe it. And those type of people are dangerous people. People willing to give up their life for something or people with nothing to live for.

    There was a part in this movie talking about a family having children just to train them into martyrdom because it brings honor to the family and they put up big billboards around their town honoring them. Just straight up brainwashing and really believing in the things they've been taught and there is something better out there after the suicide and the suicide part is actually pleasurable. So don't see that as courageous but more cowardly.

    Then you have the whole virgin part. A lot of these guys that were interviewed have never been with a woman and they really get sold on the many virgins part.

  24. #24
    OPM and Moderator Chuck Hamrick's Avatar
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    I was saddened to hear of the assignation of Ex-Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. It is easy to downplay that part of the world while sitting in the US. So we sent them $300 million in support but they refuse to police the area where the Taliban roam free. I don't see this as a big change in the region just business as usual.

  25. #25
    Affiliate Manager Alan Hamilton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Hamrick
    I was saddened to hear of the assignation of Ex-Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. It is easy to downplay that part of the world while sitting in the US. So we sent them $300 million in support but they refuse to police the area where the Taliban roam free. I don't see this as a big change in the region just business as usual.
    Actually we have thus far aided them to the tune of $10 Billion dollars. Hopefully they continue to move toward a democracy, which in itself is a long and challenging process (as demonstrated by our own history).
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