ABestWeb

Haiko de Poel, Jr. · March 13th, 2008, 11:52 AM

Kris,

Can you please elaborate on these two services offered by PJ (ie methods of operation) and the steps you incorporated to ensure affiliate friendliness?

Kris - Pepperjam · March 13th, 2008, 01:45 PM

Haiko,

This question potentially goes a little too far since in order for me to answer it fully I have to disclose confidential business strategies. I would sincerely appreciate it if you keep this in mind asking future questions.

Regardless, here you go:

The only two forms of behavioral targeting that Pepperjam has ever facilitated for our clients, include behavioral re-targeting and shopping cart abandonment.

Both of these forms of advertising drop a cookie on the user's Web site if the user (1) leaves the Web site without purchasing or (2) drops a product in a shopping cart and leaves the Web site without completing the purchase.

Once the cookie is dropped the behavioral targeting vendor, through their respective distribution network (i.e., MySpace, Fox News, CNN, etc.), will show a text-based or banner advertisement related to the advertiser that was abandoned. Typically, the advertisement offers a discount to come back and make the purchase.

There is no cookie overriding that takes place here and we do not facilitate behavioral retargeting through the affiliate networks. It's typically done on a CPM or CPC basis.

Therefore, if the user that abandoned the Web site visits an affiliate Web site or clicks a Google ad for the advertiser in question there is absolutely no cookie over righting that takes place.

The cookie is only dropped to serve banners within the vendors distribution network.

Also, the text ads or banners are only shown on Web sites that have agreed to be part of the distribution network - there is no software installed on the end user's computer.

In short, the type of behavioral retargeting we facilitate for our clients involves nothing that would require us to take special action to protect affiliates.

Behavioral retargeting is just another form of advertising that allows Pepperjam's online media planning and buying division to maximize our client's business.

Billy Kay · March 13th, 2008, 01:58 PM

Haiko, your questions are so... whatever word means "wow - I would never have thought of asking that" - cool

Kris, one of my merchants sends an email to people who abandon their cart with a special coupon to finish the purchase.

And I end up with a commission that almost got away.

When PJ re-convinces an abandoner to complete the purchase, who gets the commission?

MichaelColey · March 13th, 2008, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepperjam

There is no cookie overriding that takes place here and we do not facilitate behavioral retargeting through the affiliate networks. It's typically done on a CPM or CPC basis.

Therefore, if the user that abandoned the Web site visits an affiliate Web site or clicks a Google ad for the advertiser in question there is absolutely no cookie over righting that takes place.

Bravo! I think that's probably the main thing Haiko was asking about. I know it would be my biggest concern with any sort of abandoned cart solution. Some of your competitors (like Kowabunga's SendBite) DO overwrite affiliate cookies.

Kris - Pepperjam · March 13th, 2008, 02:05 PM

Billy Kay,

The vendors we use only distribute ads on a CPM or CPC basis through text or banner so your e-mail situation would not occur.

As I mentioned, there is no cookie overriding that takes place, so that should clear up your concerns.

Haiko de Poel, Jr. · March 13th, 2008, 02:09 PM

Thank you for the answer Kris, and yes I understand confidential strategies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepperjam

There is no cookie overriding that takes place here and we do not facilitate behavioral retargeting through the affiliate networks. It's typically done on a CPM or CPC basis.

Ok so your saying PJN pays for CPM or CPC and still credits the affiliate for the sale / pays affiliate commission?

If so, that's quite magnanimous and I'm sure very expensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepperjam

Therefore, if the user that abandoned the Web site visits an affiliate Web site or clicks a Google ad for the advertiser in question there is absolutely no cookie over righting that takes place.

Are you sure about this? If an affiliate link sent the traffic and then they abandoned and then went to another affiliate web site, the cookie would be over written ... wouldn't it? Doesn't PJN utilize this cookie method / structure?

Kris - Pepperjam · March 13th, 2008, 02:19 PM

Haiko,

You said "Ok so your saying PJN pays for CPM or CPC and still credits the affiliate for the sale / pays affiliate commission? If so, that's quite magnanimous and I'm sure very expensive."

I'm not sure what you'e asking here. Please clarify.

Thanks.

Haiko de Poel, Jr. · March 13th, 2008, 02:25 PM

Someone has to pay for the CPM or CPC, the first word in the acronym is Cost. And that cost is usually in lieu of the affiliate commission, you now saying that the cookie is not overwritten will now increase the cost of that sale as a CPC/CPM fee and a commission.

Kris - Pepperjam · March 13th, 2008, 02:57 PM

Haiko,

I'm sorry, I'm still having difficulty understanding your entire question.

The client pays for the cost.

You are right that there is no affiliate commission and no affiliate network involved.

I'm not sure what you mean by "increase the cost of that sale."

Haiko de Poel, Jr. · March 13th, 2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepperjam

You are right that there is no affiliate commission and no affiliate network involved.

Here ...

1. User a goes to an aff site, gets cookie when he goes to the merchant's site.

2. User abandons cart / doesn't buy.

3. New cookie or existing cookie gets appened with new attribute / tag

4. Affiliate sees an ad YOU PAY FOR click via CPC or CPM and returns to the site and buys.

AND

5. Affiliate gets commission

In this process you've now augmented the cost of that sale from a purely CPA offer. I've never heard of that. Companies re-acquire that customer via the CPC and CPM medium but DO NOT also pay the affiliate commission. I find it ODD that proclaim that you do pay the commissions also.

Kris - Pepperjam · March 13th, 2008, 03:44 PM

Haiko,

I didn't understand your question until now, I think.

I need to contact our vendor(s) to see exactly what happens under your scenario.

I think it's safe to say that the advertiser would still have to pay a commission to the affiliates, as well as the vendor, but I'm not certain.

Of course, the other explanation would be the last cookie dropped rule. In the same way that if a visitor went to an affiliate site (Affiliate A) and clicked on the advertiser (cookie dropped), didn't buy anything, and then ended up on another affiliate site (Affiliate B) and clicked on the advertiser, but bought something this time, Affiliate B would be credited.

Are you suggesting that with most behavioral targeting this latter situation occurs?

MichaelColey · March 13th, 2008, 03:54 PM

If you weren't certain, why did you twice say that no cookie overwriting takes place?

Haiko de Poel, Jr. · March 13th, 2008, 04:01 PM

Kris,

I'm just asking for clarification on no cookie over writting, as it's NOT common place.

Find out and then please circle back.

MichaelColey · March 13th, 2008, 04:08 PM

I'm not sure that cart abandonment solutions are common enough to say what is and isn't common. The only one I know of is Second Bite (which DOES overwrite cookies). All of the other solutions I've seen are in-house solutions (like at Overstock), and I haven't seen ANY of those that overwrite cookies.

I strongly oppose cart abandonment solutions that overwrite affiliate cookies. How can a merchant say they offer a "30 day cookie" (for instance) when they send an email out within 24 hours that overwrites the affiliate cookie if the customer clicks on it.

Kris - Pepperjam · March 13th, 2008, 04:18 PM

Haiko,

Confirmed. The affiliate would get paid under your scenario.

MichaelColey - I said it twice because I believed it to be true and I was right. I didn't understand Haiko's first question - at first, by cookie overrighting I was thinking he meant as part of an install or some other malicious tactic. After his follow-up I realized he was talking about something different.

Kris

Haiko de Poel, Jr. · March 13th, 2008, 04:35 PM

Kris,

WOW - That could get VERY expensive - almost double paying for a sale.

Now that that's answered, let's just call this a place holder for now.

Kris - Pepperjam · March 13th, 2008, 04:44 PM

Haiko,

Actually, (in my opinion) it's not that expensive from a cost benefit point of view.

It costs about 35 to 55 cents (usually) or so per click, which isn't bad considering PPC traffic usually costs much more than that.

That's not that much to pay for a repeat visitor back to the site.

Haiko de Poel, Jr. · March 13th, 2008, 04:50 PM

Is that 35 - 55 cents is a network wide average? Or what are you basing that number on?

I am sure there are many PPC terms for your merchants that are much greater than 55 cents.

Kris - Pepperjam · March 13th, 2008, 05:08 PM

The 35-55 is an average of PPC fees for BT for our clients.

You are correct, fees differ, I was giving an average.

Kris - Pepperjam · March 13th, 2008, 05:15 PM

FYI: It is unlikely that I will be able to provide detailed answers to any additional questions until next Thursday.

I have three presentations that I'll be giving next week at SES - New York and I haven't begun them yet because of my full-time dedication to this board all week.

I will be spending all day tonight and tomorrow catching up....oh, and celebrating with my wife. We just found out this morning that the sex of our child (my wife is 4 months pregnant) is a boy!

I appreciate your understanding.

March 13th, 2008, 11:52 AM	#1
Haiko de Poel, Jr. ABW Founder Join Date: January 18th, 2005 Location: New York Posts: 21,553	Question: Behavioral Targeting and Cart Abandonment Kris, Can you please elaborate on these two services offered by PJ (ie methods of operation) and the steps you incorporated to ensure affiliate friendliness? __________________ Continued Success, Haiko The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

March 13th, 2008, 01:58 PM	#3
Billy Kay The slot machine that IS paid! Join Date: January 18th, 2005 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 5,056	Haiko, your questions are so... whatever word means "wow - I would never have thought of asking that" - cool Kris, one of my merchants sends an email to people who abandon their cart with a special coupon to finish the purchase. And I end up with a commission that almost got away. When PJ re-convinces an abandoner to complete the purchase, who gets the commission? __________________ http://billykaymusic.com

March 13th, 2008, 02:25 PM	#8
Haiko de Poel, Jr. ABW Founder Join Date: January 18th, 2005 Location: New York Posts: 21,553	Someone has to pay for the CPM or CPC, the first word in the acronym is Cost. And that cost is usually in lieu of the affiliate commission, you now saying that the cookie is not overwritten will now increase the cost of that sale as a CPC/CPM fee and a commission. __________________ Continued Success, Haiko The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

March 13th, 2008, 04:01 PM	#13
Haiko de Poel, Jr. ABW Founder Join Date: January 18th, 2005 Location: New York Posts: 21,553	Kris, I'm just asking for clarification on no cookie over writting, as it's NOT common place. Find out and then please circle back. __________________ Continued Success, Haiko The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

March 13th, 2008, 04:35 PM	#16
Haiko de Poel, Jr. ABW Founder Join Date: January 18th, 2005 Location: New York Posts: 21,553	Kris, WOW - That could get VERY expensive - almost double paying for a sale. Now that that's answered, let's just call this a place holder for now. __________________ Continued Success, Haiko The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

ABestWeb

Internet Services

Website Development

Tech Hardware

March 13th, 2008, 01:45 PM	#2
Kris - Pepperjam Affiliate Network Rep Join Date: February 4th, 2007 Posts: 207	Haiko, This question potentially goes a little too far since in order for me to answer it fully I have to disclose confidential business strategies. I would sincerely appreciate it if you keep this in mind asking future questions. Regardless, here you go: The only two forms of behavioral targeting that Pepperjam has ever facilitated for our clients, include behavioral re-targeting and shopping cart abandonment. Both of these forms of advertising drop a cookie on the user's Web site if the user (1) leaves the Web site without purchasing or (2) drops a product in a shopping cart and leaves the Web site without completing the purchase. Once the cookie is dropped the behavioral targeting vendor, through their respective distribution network (i.e., MySpace, Fox News, CNN, etc.), will show a text-based or banner advertisement related to the advertiser that was abandoned. Typically, the advertisement offers a discount to come back and make the purchase. There is no cookie overriding that takes place here and we do not facilitate behavioral retargeting through the affiliate networks. It's typically done on a CPM or CPC basis. Therefore, if the user that abandoned the Web site visits an affiliate Web site or clicks a Google ad for the advertiser in question there is absolutely no cookie over righting that takes place. The cookie is only dropped to serve banners within the vendors distribution network. Also, the text ads or banners are only shown on Web sites that have agreed to be part of the distribution network - there is no software installed on the end user's computer. In short, the type of behavioral retargeting we facilitate for our clients involves nothing that would require us to take special action to protect affiliates. Behavioral retargeting is just another form of advertising that allows Pepperjam's online media planning and buying division to maximize our client's business.

March 13th, 2008, 02:05 PM	#5
Kris - Pepperjam Affiliate Network Rep Join Date: February 4th, 2007 Posts: 207	Billy Kay, The vendors we use only distribute ads on a CPM or CPC basis through text or banner so your e-mail situation would not occur. As I mentioned, there is no cookie overriding that takes place, so that should clear up your concerns.

March 13th, 2008, 02:19 PM	#7
Kris - Pepperjam Affiliate Network Rep Join Date: February 4th, 2007 Posts: 207	Haiko, You said "Ok so your saying PJN pays for CPM or CPC and still credits the affiliate for the sale / pays affiliate commission? If so, that's quite magnanimous and I'm sure very expensive." I'm not sure what you'e asking here. Please clarify. Thanks.

March 13th, 2008, 02:57 PM	#9
Kris - Pepperjam Affiliate Network Rep Join Date: February 4th, 2007 Posts: 207	Haiko, I'm sorry, I'm still having difficulty understanding your entire question. The client pays for the cost. You are right that there is no affiliate commission and no affiliate network involved. I'm not sure what you mean by "increase the cost of that sale."

March 13th, 2008, 03:44 PM	#11
Kris - Pepperjam Affiliate Network Rep Join Date: February 4th, 2007 Posts: 207	Haiko, I didn't understand your question until now, I think. I need to contact our vendor(s) to see exactly what happens under your scenario. I think it's safe to say that the advertiser would still have to pay a commission to the affiliates, as well as the vendor, but I'm not certain. Of course, the other explanation would be the last cookie dropped rule. In the same way that if a visitor went to an affiliate site (Affiliate A) and clicked on the advertiser (cookie dropped), didn't buy anything, and then ended up on another affiliate site (Affiliate B) and clicked on the advertiser, but bought something this time, Affiliate B would be credited. Are you suggesting that with most behavioral targeting this latter situation occurs?

March 13th, 2008, 04:18 PM	#15
Kris - Pepperjam Affiliate Network Rep Join Date: February 4th, 2007 Posts: 207	Haiko, Confirmed. The affiliate would get paid under your scenario. MichaelColey - I said it twice because I believed it to be true and I was right. I didn't understand Haiko's first question - at first, by cookie overrighting I was thinking he meant as part of an install or some other malicious tactic. After his follow-up I realized he was talking about something different. Kris

March 13th, 2008, 04:44 PM	#17
Kris - Pepperjam Affiliate Network Rep Join Date: February 4th, 2007 Posts: 207	Haiko, Actually, (in my opinion) it's not that expensive from a cost benefit point of view. It costs about 35 to 55 cents (usually) or so per click, which isn't bad considering PPC traffic usually costs much more than that. That's not that much to pay for a repeat visitor back to the site.

March 13th, 2008, 04:50 PM	#18
Haiko de Poel, Jr. ABW Founder Join Date: January 18th, 2005 Location: New York Posts: 21,553	Is that 35 - 55 cents is a network wide average? Or what are you basing that number on? I am sure there are many PPC terms for your merchants that are much greater than 55 cents. __________________ Continued Success, Haiko The secret of success is constancy of purpose ~ Disraeli

March 13th, 2008, 05:08 PM	#19
Kris - Pepperjam Affiliate Network Rep Join Date: February 4th, 2007 Posts: 207	The 35-55 is an average of PPC fees for BT for our clients. You are correct, fees differ, I was giving an average.

March 13th, 2008, 05:15 PM	#20
Kris - Pepperjam Affiliate Network Rep Join Date: February 4th, 2007 Posts: 207	FYI: It is unlikely that I will be able to provide detailed answers to any additional questions until next Thursday. I have three presentations that I'll be giving next week at SES - New York and I haven't begun them yet because of my full-time dedication to this board all week. I will be spending all day tonight and tomorrow catching up....oh, and celebrating with my wife. We just found out this morning that the sex of our child (my wife is 4 months pregnant) is a boy! I appreciate your understanding.