[Snib]

We, as affiliates, are notorious for generating duplicate content. In many cases we modify descriptions from datafeeds to avoid duplicate content filters. But even this is duplicate content. It's become a game to take the same content and make it unique enough to get past the filters. Then the search engines update their algorithms, remove the "unique" content and affiliates start looking for another work around. Since when did affiliate marketing involve using work arounds and loopholes to get ahead?

A lot of this comes down to our sources. Datafeeds, articles and marketing materials are readily available, so many affiliates rely fully on this duplicate information. Most affiliates aren't capable of writing their own unique content or capturing user generated content. So how can these affiliates stop contributing to the problem and still remain in this profession?

Modifying duplicate content just isn't the solution.

- Scott

[CathyM]

I try to avoid duplicate content by hand writing and coding my pages and product links. The downside of this approach is that it doesn't scale to working with large volumes of products.

[Snib]

Originally Posted by CathyM

I try to avoid duplicate content by hand writing and coding my pages and product links. The downside of this approach is that it doesn't scale to working with large volumes of products.

There are ways to automate in conjunction with unique content. For example you can write a detailed review of a particular product and include a price comparison widget at the bottom of your review. In any event I applaud you for writing your own content.

- Scott

[Leader]

What a load of flame bait/trolling.

As for the poll, options 1 and 3. Depends on the site.

Since when did affiliate marketing involve using work arounds and loopholes to get ahead?

Since bears started sh*tting in the woods! And that's the case whether the "content" is unique or not. What rock have you been under?! Self-empl*yment ITSELF is a "workaround." The conventional way to make money is with a job.

I've said of AM, "it's a video game," only you get paid. And what's a video game, but an algo to beat? Beating the algo is FUN!

So how can these affiliates stop contributing to the problem and still remain in this profession?

By refusing to be brainwashed into thinking it's a "problem," and basically ignoring such negativity.

It's the same kind of thinking that is used to dump empl*yment in the first place. After all, some (most!) think you "have to" have a JOB to make a living. And here, some think you have to do what SEs say, to make a living. It's all bullsh*t of the highest order.

70% or more of success is ignoring the "conventional wisdom" in the first place.

[Mack]

It depends. On some feeds, example inkjet refills, you going to rewrite 1,000 descriptions? It's just not practical for some items/feeds. I use GC on another site so there isn't really a choice there. I do try to add content around the edges.

On the other hand I have some sites that I intentionally avoid any duplicate content, and write everything 100%, host my own images and create all of the links.

For the amount of time invested, they all seem to pay the same.

[Vinny O'Hare]

hand written content = $$$$
plr articles = $0

Snib it is funny that you made this poll today as i did a little house cleaning and deleted two sites and about 5000 pages of semi dup content this morning.

[Snib]

Originally Posted by Leader

By refusing to be brainwashed into thinking it's a "problem," and basically ignoring such negativity.

I think the problem is people think this is safe. Throw up a datafeed or two and you'll have money rolling in. Newcomers join the game and spend their money and time on web hosting, domains, tools, etc. and end up getting burned. They give up and end up worse off than they were.

Or maybe they'll have mild success and decide to create hundreds of sites that add no value to the net. Customers find these sites and get upset because the prices aren't updated and the products are out of stock. Eventually all these sites will get banned and they'll have nothing to fall back on.

Or *maybe* they'll have incredible success and begin to rely on it only to have it all taken away in one foul swoop. This could lead to bankruptcy or worse.

When it comes down to it doing whatever it takes to make a dime isn't the recipe for lasting success.

Originally Posted by Leader

It's the same kind of thinking that is used to dump empl*yment in the first place. After all, some (most!) think you "have to" have a JOB to make a living. And here, some think you have to do what SEs say, to make a living. It's all bullsh*t of the highest order.

It's not what the search engines say you "have to" do. It's a matter of contribution. What does duplicate contribute for consumers? How does it help them? If you aren't helping customers you have no loyalty and you risk losing everything overnight. IMO that's a dangerous way to earn a living.

Originally Posted by Leader

70% or more of success is ignoring the "conventional wisdom" in the first place.

I agree with that. That's why I'm combating the "conventional wisdom" that manipulating duplicate content results in success.

Originally Posted by Mack

It depends. On some feeds, example inkjet refills, you going to rewrite 1,000 descriptions? It's just not practical for some items/feeds. I use GC on another site so there isn't really a choice there. I do try to add content around the edges.

Why even bother with 1,000 descriptions? Why not leave them to the merchant and offer something the merchant doesn't. Maybe you can offer a tool to find the cheapest refill for their model of printer. Or possibly do a tool that informs customers of sales on their particular refill. Just have to think outside the box a little.

- Scott

[Steele]

Originally Posted by Snib

It's not what the search engines say you "have to" do. It's a matter of contribution. What does duplicate contribute for consumers? How does it help them?

And if everyone has a price-comparison tool on their site, with a dash of reviews and a pinch of forum..... that gets pretty old too.

BTW.... do you not use merchant descriptions verbatim on your site?

[Snib]

Originally Posted by Steele

And if everyone has a price-comparison tool on their site, with a dash of reviews and a pinch of forum..... that gets pretty old too.

I'm not saying price comparison is exempt. There are a ton of Shopping.com affiliates who just duplicate the same products and prices. I don't think price comparison is enough by today's standards. Customers want more.

Originally Posted by Steele

BTW.... do you not use merchant descriptions verbatim on your site?

My point is that verbatim or not it's still the same content. So modifying descriptions and product names to duplicate a merchant site isn't doing much to help customers.

- Scott

[Rhia7]

Originally Posted by Snib

So modifying descriptions and product names to duplicate a merchant site isn't doing much to help customers.
- Scott

What about modifying descriptions of products and grouping/classifying them with either similar or different products and assuring that the products came from a mix of vendors/affiliate merchants?
If something like this is done then one merchant's site has not been duplicated, a comparison type of page has been created.

[John Powell]

Timely thread since today I've been immersed in the world of dedupe. I don't think most folks that put up feeds are aware of how many ways it can turn into duplicate content of one form or another.

I think new affiliates are kind of led to that with all the talk about availability of feeds and "my 10,000 page site". The merchants too since they put a good bit of effort into providing them. I'm not sure what the answer is, but the skill to offer up some of the "tools" and "widgets" is beyond a lot of people.

Personally I'll do a little content, but I'm never going to be a slave to it. Everything on the web that works becomes duplicated sooner or later.

[Rhia7]

Originally Posted by Snib

We, as affiliates, are notorious for generating duplicate content.

A lot of this comes down to our sources. - Scott

The actual product is part of the content.
A number of vendors/merchants can sell the same items/products [one reason for the genesis of price comparison sites].

Originally Posted by Snib

Modifying duplicate content just isn't the solution.
- Scott

It can be part of the solution, the other part of the solution is to create the type of "atmosphere" that will inspire your visitors to your site to become shoppers from your site.

What type of individual/personal/artistic (or otherwise) touch[es] can the webmaster put on his/her site that will make the site inviting to a visitor?

[Rhia7]

Originally Posted by Snib

...include a price comparison widget at the bottom of your review.

I usually write my own content (for some pages, items, ideas, or facts I will do research to find out more about the topic too) and I hand code everything (with Dreamweaver), where does one find the instructions to create a "price comparison widget?"

What's the best source for a webmaster who would like to explore ways to speed up the automation process?

[Leader]

Why even bother with 1,000 descriptions? Why not leave them to the merchant and offer something the merchant doesn't.

Going with that printer-ink example. It's for SEO.

Many times, people don't search for the generic term "printer ink," they search for long-tail stuff like "HP 1947 cartridge." So the objective is to get the page to come up under that. A general printer-ink page will never show under "HP 1947 cartridge." If you put a widget with that term, it may not be spiderable. And even if it is, it may mention so many different printers that the SE doesn't find any of the terms "important" enough to rank the page under.

But, one of those 1000 different pages may show up under that, if the merchant has the sense to include that kind of data in their feed.

That's (and unscalability) what's wrong with most nonfeed pages. They severely dock the long tail.

I agree with that. That's why I'm combating the "conventional wisdom" that manipulating duplicate content results in success.

That really isn't the "conventional wisdom." Outside of here, many still repeat the tired and worn-out old saw that content is the king of something. And even here some will say it. To me, they might as well be proposing that the Earth is flat and surrounded by sea monsters.

It's not what the search engines say you "have to" do. It's a matter of contribution. What does duplicate contribute for consumers? How does it help them?

This needs dissecting. It seems to come from the "contribute to the internet community" philosophy, which itself seems like it came right outta China or Cuba, and not some properly market-minded place.

Just the name--contribution--denotes a FREE GIFT rather than a business proposition. I am NOT in the business to give stuff away free. Or to give away time, or info, or anything else. My business is to make money. If the only reason people come to my sites is to mooch, I don't want them there.

How does it help them? If you aren't helping customers

It helps them by letting them know where they can buy the stuff they were searching for in the first place. They want to buy X, I sell 'em X.

I think the problem is people think this is safe. Throw up a datafeed or two and you'll have money rolling in. Newcomers join the game and spend their money and time on web hosting, domains, tools, etc. and end up getting burned.

Thing is, there IS NO "safe" in real life, and especially not in business. It's not a matter of whether something is risky, it's how risky...and whether that level is too risky in the opinion of the one making the bet.

It is, and should be, up to each individual to decide how much risk, and what type of risk, they're willing to accept. It's not a "problem" that some (or even most!) don't make it, any more than it's a "problem" that not everyone is suited for doing extreme sports.

Those who think *anything* to do with self-employment is "safe" are in for a rude awakening--no matter WHAT business they choose or how they go about it!

Or *maybe* they'll have incredible success and begin to rely on it only to have it all taken away in one foul swoop. This could lead to bankruptcy or worse.

It sounds like YOU aren't comfortable with the risk level, and are trying to spread the fear.

But to answer the scenario--after the hurricane, comes the rebuilding.

Some rebuild fast, some slow, and some will endure being rained on for a long LONG time before doing any w*rk. But, the rebuilding happens.

Basically you're advocating a move inland. Saying to go where it's safer and less windy. But I like the "coast," if I didn't, I wouldn't have put a metaphorical house there to begin with. And the storms are part of the attraction.

[Rhia7]

Originally Posted by Mack

It depends. On some feeds, example inkjet refills, you going to rewrite 1,000 descriptions?

I think the way the webmaster treats navigation here is the key in this case.

Make sure that the inkjet refills are near an easy and inviting navigational framework so that visitors can go to complementary products

Atmosphere can be defined in many ways.
Inkjet refills could be placed within an artistic page or something pleasant to the eye.
The "atmosphere" might be the way the page/site is set-up for an efficient and pleasant inkjet refills shopping experience.
In this case I think efficiency is most important.

[mrbshouse]

it might be the same words but if i understand SEO best practices better than the merchant I don't see the problem. If their navigation sucks and mine rocks it's an opportunity not a penalty!

[Alan Hamilton]

Gang, first of all, I openly acknowledge that I am not a techy on this stuff. Nor am I an SEO guru. But lots of years of offline business experience leads me to some comments on this thread. Let me know what you think....

Although not many members have contributed to this thread, I find it a very interesting discussion of the "why", "how" and "why not" of content.

An affiliate who has 30 sites may have a real man/woman power problem in writing all original content. Hence, duplicate, or edited existing content becomes a helper to the under-staffed one horse show. Though it may not offer a permanent fix, or what Snib refers to as a "contribution value" - it has its value considering the constraints necessitated by a small operation?

From what I understand, it is not the perfect solution. It is a convenience, and as I understand it, convenience is what draws people to AM. Hence, the use of mildly edited dup content.

I like to envision myself as a good writer, but I also acknowledge / accept my limitations when it comes to the other aspects of getting pages ranked. Fortunately (not to be confused with "luck") I have other people who specialize in these areas. But for AM'ers who are one person shows I can also see why altered dup content is relied upon so heavily. Whether it contributes value of not is not my point. I am simply recognizing why small operations rely upon it.

I truly appreciate Snibs concern and comments. In a better scenario, one would have a staff member whose job is to constantly update / author / edit content? But in the one man mentality world of AM, the focus is on convenience?

At any rate, I am enjoying this thread and hope that other experienced members add input here. Thanks Snib, and thanks Leader for offering your candid views. Good discussion is always a benefit, whether your views are in sync or not.

[Snib]

Originally Posted by Leader

Going with that printer-ink example. It's for SEO.

I think what I'm really trying to say here is maybe we'd be better off spending our time doing something valuable to the consumer rather than modifying duplicate content to gain SEO benefits. It really just comes down to how much emphasis we put into SEO versus customer loyalty. Affiliates spend their time manipulating duplicate content for SEO benefits alone. It's completely useless for a consumer to read the same description or article with the text slightly rearranged.

Originally Posted by Leader

That's (and unscalability) what's wrong with most nonfeed pages. They severely dock the long tail.

To be honest I don't think there's anything wrong with using datafeeds. But what most affiliates do with them is not useful. They're trying to earn those longtail searches without contributing anything new. And we advise one another that changing the descriptions is the key. But that doesn't address the core problem of helping the consumer.

Originally Posted by Leader

Just the name--contribution--denotes a FREE GIFT rather than a business proposition. I am NOT in the business to give stuff away free. Or to give away time, or info, or anything else. My business is to make money. If the only reason people come to my sites is to mooch, I don't want them there.

Customers always want something for nothing and unless you've got it, they'll look for it elsewhere. It's those who put real thought into their sites that catch these customers. The affiliates who find the real deals that nobody else can find. Or the affiliates who offer an unbiased breakdown of what to buy or what not to buy. Maybe it's even the affiliates who track consumer reports and sell products that are rated at a certain level of safety for children. It's these services that consumers want for free. And throwing up a datafeed because they've got a 15% commission instead of a 10% commission is not in the consumers' best interest.

So many affiliates act on their own needs while completely disregarding their customers. How is it in our customers' best interest when we replace a merchant because they made an affiliate communication mistake? How are we helping customers by disregarding a merchant because their commission rate is too low? Maybe these merchants are favorites among our customers, but we're censoring for our own selfish reasons.

Who do we really work for, our customers or ourselves?

- Scott

[Mr. Sal]

Are you contributing to the duplicate content problem?

Every affiliate from any merchant, will have some kind of exact duplicate content from that merchant.

Small example: A Magazine merchant:
Just 500 affiliates promoting, that same Magazine merchant:
How many unique ways, those 500 affiliates can promote this [random example] Magazine?

Magazine Title: Psychology Today -------> Those 500 affiliates have to display the same Magazine Title
Magazine Picture: -----------------------> Those 500 affiliates have to display the same Magazine Picture, (thumbnail or big pic, but the same cover of that mag.)
Magazine Description: -------------------> Those 500 affiliates have to display the same or almost the same Magazine Description.
Magazine Price: xx.xx -------------------> Those 500 affiliates have to display the same Price, or no Price.
How many Issues: ----------------------> Those 500 affiliates have to display the same number of Issues, or nothing there.



You can't change that Magazine Real Title!
You can't change that Magazine Real Cover! (unless you want to put your own photo on the Times or Peoples Magazine.)
You can't change that Magazine Real Description!
You can't change that Magazine Real Price, if you post the merchant actual price!

So right there, you will have 500 affiliates plus the merchant, promoting the same content on the net, for just one Magazine Title.

On most of the unique products that we all promote, we're going to have to accept the reality that in order to not deceive or mislead or our visitors, we must show our visitors that the product link they're clicking on our site, will be almost 100% the same thing on the merchant site, so they can just go there with the CC ready, to maybe buy that product that we supposedly have pre-sold on our site.

---------------

We're not alone!

There are millions of affiliates on the internet, and we all want to be listed on the first page of the SE's, so everytime that there is a new rumor about an algo this or an algo that, many thousand's of affiliates will run to their sites in a panic mode, in order to please the SE's on the new (thing) their see or heard on the net, but at the end, even if just 500 affiliates on the net, follow the new SE's rules or algos 100% on what they say, there is only room for a few affiliates on the first three pages of result.

So who will be first 100 affiliates listed on any SE?

Those with already enough stable traffic, and those that pay for traffic, will always show higher than those that may not have build enough traffic yet, not even if they say "Yes S., how high you want me to jump this time?"

[John Powell]

I'm not sure why this is an issue. If a feed site works, (meaning people find it and buy), then it will survive. Otherwise it dies. It doesn't damage the webscape like garbage on the beech. If it's unused it's unseen.

The only issue I see is that they make it hard on each other. They don't seem to effect the quality sites. While we see them as duplicate the average user has never seen that particular content before. If it doesn't perform a service it will cease to exist.

Who do we really work for, our customers or ourselves?

Can you do one without the other? I have worked for myself for 35 years, and yes it sometimes feel like I've been working for my customers...

[netnow22]

If your talking about datafeeds in specific, you can still use the company default description but you need to add your own content to the page

[Leader]

This is uber long, so I've broken it up into 2 posts.

@ Snib--you seem to have an extremely expanded idea of what counts as a "customer," as well as broad-brushing what they supposedly "want." As I think about it, your assumptions seem to apply to ELECTRONICS tire-kickers. These will never be my customers, so their desires are, in actuality, irrelevant to me. I don't care what they want, like, etc. I don't sell electronics, and general-merchandise buyers are a lot more reasonable and much less moochy than what you seem to take for granted.

But since you used the word "customer" without qualification, as if it applies to all of them:

Customers always want something for nothing and unless you've got it, they'll look for it elsewhere.

(Bold added)
LOL LOL GOOD!!

I WANT them to find their free crap, free tools, free anything, elsewhere! When they realize that they're going to have to pay to get what's actually worth having, that's when I want to see them. And NOT until!

Also, I need to set something straight.

Originally Posted by Answers.com, from American Heritage Dictionaries

Customer N. 1) One that buys goods or services.

(bold added) Not a moocher, not a free-anything seeker, not even someone who "may" buy later. ONE THAT BUYS is the only one that qualifies as a customer.

I don't need nor want any parasitic faux-customers. Those types will take everything they can get from you, and then begrudge you your tracking link.

And throwing up a datafeed because they've got a 15% commission instead of a 10% commission is not in the consumers' best interest.

This isn't some utopian la-la land; if you don't do what's in YOUR best interest enough of the time, you will be the one in bankruptcy.

However, I will note that a 15% to 10% differential isn't necessarily enough to use one "instead of" the other. It could well be that nobody wants to deal with the 15% place, but lots of people will buy from the 10%er. If I really saw merchants with those particular commissions and selling the exact same stuff, I'd probably test them both, and whoever brought the biggest ROI would win.

It's when most merchants (avg. across all categories) are paying at least 10%, and then some place shows up with 1%-3%, that I draw the line and say it's nonsense to accept the low offers. To sell a $2k computer and get $20 would absolutely nauseate me. It'd be like I had volunteered to be robbed. I *know* that I can sell a lot of other, far cheaper and easier to sell, stuff and get more bottom-line commission for the effort.

If you broaden your horizons beyond the electronics market, you'll see that 1%-3% really isn't worth bothering with, and if that means the one who would have bought that [insert electronic thing here] goes somewhere else...OH WELL. Good on 'im.

Why sell a Sony camcorder that retails for $300 and make, say, $3, when you can sell someone a replacement battery for that thing and make $6 or $10???!! It just doesn't make sense.

[Leader]

Here's the rest:

Or the affiliates who offer an unbiased breakdown of what to buy or what not to buy. Maybe it's even the affiliates who track consumer reports and sell products that are rated at a certain level of safety for children. It's these services that consumers want for free.

They can "want" away. It's nuts to give for free, what Consumer Reports has absolutely no problem being paid for!

As if everything that's "wanted" should be given just for that reason I want a FREE large private tropical island with free ferry service and free employees! Gee, why aren't there donors lining up to just gimme that because I want it?! And why aren't they calling me their "customer" to boot?!

Don't be a tool. You deserve to be paid for things/services that have value.

Who do we really work for, our customers or ourselves?

Again--those resource-eating, time-chewing jerks you describe aren't customers. Customers are those WHO ACTUALLY BUY. And, my conversion ratio continues to show that THEY like my sites just fine.

But to answer the question--I do business with customers and merchants--but I only work for MYSELF. I have no qualms in showing people the door, customer or not, when they are deserving of it. And all these moochers you talk about catering to, are the biggest group of the very ones who I consider deserving of it. They kill ROI.

REAL CUSTOMERS who actually want to buy, those are an integral part of business. Actual customers are always welcome. But, I don't dream that every yutz who walks by is a customer. They're definitely not.

I have seen a business that thinks like you are proposing, firsthand. Live and in person, and from the empl*yee-side. So, I knew the actual price of everything involved, including time spent, and therefore could do the math. At one point I knew exactly how much the store LOST every time it catered to some noncustomer. And, it was always, without fail, a LOSS.

It inoculated me very well against such follies as misunderstanding just exactly what a "customer" is.

I'm quite happy and even proud to send money-losing traffic away, away to corrode the profits of my competition.

How is it in our customers' best interest when we replace a merchant because they made an affiliate communication mistake? How are we helping customers by disregarding a merchant because their commission rate is too low? Maybe these merchants are favorites among our customers, but we're censoring for our own selfish reasons.

C'est la vie. If there's not enough ROI in it, it's not businessworthy.
And don't get me started on the whole concept of "selfish." Nobody is being hurt by having to look elsewhere for Mr. Cheapskate Merchant's stuff, except Mr. Cheapskate Merchant. And it serves Mr. CM right to have no coverage. Rather than look for him, some customers will take Ms. Recommended Merchant instead, which is good for all except the CM. The real customer gets the item, you get a decent commish, and Cheapskate gets nada. As it should be.

Your (real) customers may even find that Recommended Merchant is *better than* the cheapskate after all.

Also, the commissions will never rise if affiliates are willing to accept low ones for ANY REASON. It hurts the affiliate industry every time some tightwad is able to get even a single link onto an affiliate site.

[Connie]

Hi all,

Great thread! I've learned a lot.

I have a content site that I first built for fun but am now trying to turn into a profitable site. I've spent the last couple of months making mistakes, but am just now realizing one of the biggest ones I've been making. When someone visits my site, I don't necessarily have the right things for them to buy--or anything for them to buy.

I've been caught up in the content is king mantra so deeply that I haven't wanted to 'offend' my visitors by trying to sell them stuff. I've had the misguided thinking that offering products/services that might fit with their wants or needs might be pushy. Pretty wrong-sighted, huh? Also, notice that I am still calling them visitors instead of customers. I've got to break away from the idea that this site is for my friends' benefits and realize that it's okay for it to be for MY benefit.

I'm now working on changing my mindset. Already, I'm looking at my pages in a different way.

(Yes, I should have kept my ignorance to myself, but I wanted to let everyone on this thread know what a great thing it is for them to share their knowledge with whoever stumbles across it.

Thanks for the great, inspirational thread.

[Alan Hamilton]

Originally Posted by Connie

(Yes, I should have kept my ignorance to myself, but I wanted to let everyone on this thread know what a great thing it is for them to share their knowledge with whoever stumbles across it.

What you shared above is also inspirational Connie, and I really mean that. To your benefit, you have the maturity and confidence to acknowledge there are things you don't know. Good for you!! Hey, we are all ignorant about countless things, so what!! But insofar as e-marketing is concerned, threads like this one (and the posts included in this thread) epitomize what I see as the best value to being an ABW neighbor.

Snib/Scott, thank you again for bringing this up. Leader and all, thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience. I'm learning things I did not know through this thread. In return, If you ever want to learn how to tie dry flies, (as if) I'm your man!!