[Alan Hamilton]

Originally Posted by sfcom

I thought that we already had someone deciding the standards along with the people here at ABW---Kellie over at AFP. No blog posts there since February though. Maybe she will show up over here from time to time in a collaborative effort like she has previously.sfcom

Doubt she will post here again SF. It happened before your ABW time, but long story short, some time back, Kelly chose not to continue offering her invaluable contributions here at ABW. Kelly is a true patriot / activist when it comes to fair play in the affiliate marketing game, so you might want to look her up at the Boston summit if she is there. Not sure if she is part of the panel that is conducting the session on ethical affiliate practices at the Summit, but she is a great source of information on the subject, and a great person!

[Chuck Hamrick]

Kellie left ABW many months ago!

[tsmgroup2]

I believe that anyone introducing a beginning to ethics recognition is great, but remember to educate too. I for one, have very little knowledge on how to promote except by original site content, paid advertising, or bumping to associates on social networks and others of that kind. In addition to ethics, could we also assemble a team that works against click fraud, link (sales) stealing, and maybe additional education on what everyone can do to enhance sales or spreading the word on what does work? I know there are trade secrets out there that work and some think that they should keep them to themselves, but they are forgetting that without sharing there is no furthering on that information, no way to improve upon it.
This is my two cents, hopefully someone out here knows how to change into ten cents! My hats off to ya! Good luck!

[Chuck Hamrick]

Mark, there is an AM only forum and OPM only forum where we discuss what we see in the way of fraud and sales theft. We don't want to discuss the culprits and their tactics openly until we can evaluate it. At that time we would post here.

We have the parasiteware forum where we publish information on the BHO, download affiliates. Would love to see a conversation on fraud, sales theft, etc. as I could certainly benefit from knowing more.

How about starting a new thread on the subject and see if you can get the conversation going?

maybe additional education on what everyone can do to enhance sales or spreading the word on what does work?

Doubt that affiliates want to disclose that and AM/OPM's have to protect their relationships. Its a great idea and many get education at the conferences which publish information afterwards.

[meco24]

I'm a merchant, and pretty new to my company. I've noticed we've been trademarked poached with the old geo target trick. I've calculated that up to 65% of what we're paying for isn't legit. Based on CPA, it's worth it for me to pull out of SAS and CJ completely and sacrifice some incremental sales in favor of the cost savings of not paying a premium on my branded/trademarked terms. I'm sure other merchants will become aware as I have. So decide for yourselves whether to expose the bad apples, or reap what you sow.

[Chuck Hamrick]

meco24, if you don't have the stomach to police your own affiliate program you should get out. Sounds like an agenda to me!

Affiliate marketing is developing a partnership with your affiliates. Its not placing ads or buying media. It actually takes hard work and isn't something you plug in and leave on auto pilot.

If your policy is established in the network and affiliates are violating it the network will support you and very possibly kick the bad players out. Again, you can't be passive and have to work the system.

[meco24]

Thanks Chuck. I'm sure many merchants wear many hats in their companies as I do and don't have the time to play Sherlock Holmes all day. I've inherited this mess and yeah it's been on autopilot.

I noticed a defensiveness in this thread that's alarming. Why enable the bad players? And if there was any question as to if these guys are adhering to stated guidelines or not, why would they geo target?

[Chuck Hamrick]

By working to get rid of the bad players we elevate the honest affiliates. It also discredits the affiliate channel as a viable marketing channel if we just complain about the bad players. SEO is much dirtier arena but then you are paying someone to get you ranked.

My question is why would you spend the $1000's of dollars it takes to launch a program in two networks to pulled the plug. Hire an OPM to clean it up and green it up.

[meco24]

I didn't launch them, a consultant did years ago. I'm new to the company. The programs aren't new.

My opinion is it'll be best for everyone to expose the Babulati, Inc.s and Round Table Marketing Inc.s of the world.

[Eathan]

Originally Posted by Chuck Hamrick

...the network will support you and very possibly kick the bad players out.

The last time I asked a network rep why a repeat offender wasn't being kicked out, I was told that another merchant on the network considered them a top performer.

Chuck, I agree with most of what you're saying in general, but established merchant policies or not, most networks are perfectly content to leave TM poachers to their games. I wish they'd catch on that the poachers are parasites, but cash colored glasses seem to obstruct the view...

[Rexanne]

Originally Posted by Eathan

The last time I asked a network rep why a repeat offender wasn't being kicked out, I was told that another merchant on the network considered them a top performer.

Chuck, I agree with most of what you're saying in general, but established merchant policies or not, most networks are perfectly content to leave TM poachers to their games. I wish they'd catch on that the poachers are parasites, but cash colored glasses seem to obstruct the view...

I agree with you 100% Eathan.

TM poachers and "ppc vultures" (a term one of my merchants coined and I love it) are killing off good merchants faster than we can replace them.

This is another issue of pussy fotting around, trying to be PC. It's total bullsh!t! Trademark poachers and PPC vultures are making the networks money so the networks turn a blind eye. Pretty soon, the networks won't be making any money either because all the good merchants will be gone from the vertical.

I also agree with Meco24: "Clean up the mess or reap what you sow."

Chuck, I know you run a tight ship and are clean as can be but there are other OPMs and managers who allow TM poaching because it makes them money and adds to the bottom line of the affiliate program, making them look like heroes while bleeding an unsuspecting merchant dry.

It's small thinking and the type of thinking that works only for short term gain of the cheaters. Anyone in this for the long term is screwed by allowing these vultures to pick the bones clean of our living, breathing programs which will kill them so no other affiliate or merchant has a chance.

I also think the "outing" of bad players needs to be in a more private setting, possibly in the manager's-only forum. It doesn't help affiliates to know who's cheating and this would ensure a level of privacy to make it easier to bust the bastards.

[meco24]

Netphilie LLC.,

[Caseyfern]

Perhaps someone in the know could post a glossary of these terms and what they mean, for us new folks? TM poachers? PPC vultures?

[2busy]

There is a lot of information in the forum about these terms. They generally refer to people who promote via PPC and use the merchant's display URL so the the shopper you introduced to Merchant.com's products Googles for Merchant.com when they get ready to go and buy. There at the top of Google's sponsored links is the PPC ad disguised as the merchant. Good-bye cookie.
Some merchants allow this, they don't see that they are paying for their own traffic, they are just happy because that aff brings them so much traffic. If a merchant allows this then it is not unethical, it is up to you to research the programs you join and join those whose policies fit your work model. When it becomes unethical is if it is against the Merchant's TOC and/or the PPC aff is using geotargetting to avoid getting caught by the merchant.

There will be many others with their own definitions, I just tried to put in generic terms.

There is no "across the board" agreement on the ethics of this method, ethics being in the sight of the beholder.

[Donuts]

In my opinion, CJ's hopeless - the data they make hard to find, their own leanings towards poppers, their policing ineffectiveness and more. But at SAS, they just beefed up the compliance system and merchants now have more teeth than ever for marking bad affiliates like the ones you mentioned. Suggest you give some thought to which networks are working towards addressing your concerns most and learn more about SAS's new compliance directives just recently put into place.

When their are multiple networls switched on your confirm page, also realize one bad one can trump any good ones there, a serious possible pitfall of multi-platforms (check out the SAS Exclusive option - affs know what that means regarding BHO thievery).

One good strategy might be to consolidate to one network who looks out for you and use the cost savings to hire an ethical OPM to rebuild things on your new and improved foundation.

Good luck!

[Donuts]

If you missed the ethics panel at the Boston Affiliate Summit (aug 08), check out the video when it comes out later. Haiko discussed this forum in a little more detail there, I think that video would be of interest to many others here.

[Chuck Hamrick]

We willl eventually put together an affiliate - merchant based set of principles. Then we can impose that on the networks as a code of conduct. Having the networks and parasites create a code of conduct is a joke.

[Donuts]

Excellent point Chuck! The networks function to facilitate what happens between affiliates and merchants - there are some networks that do understand that and conduct themselves accordingly. Unfortunately, those that do are in the minority.

[Chuck Hamrick]

We need to find a way to elevate the ethical networks which to my knowledge are limited to Shareasale and AvantLink. From a commercial stand point they have their strengths but are not huge producers. That tells me that the biggest affiliates prefer the Big Three and it may be due to the merchants there or perks. We are interested in how to move the sales through the ethical networks but right now are dependent on the bigger ones based on volume of affiliates.

[Donuts]

Your recent summit panel work does just that Chuck! We both know there are good and bad people everywhere - so long as we foster getting EVERYONE to talk openly about these things, in public, it becomes clearer to EVERYONE, who stands where.

[Brian - ShareASale]

Wow. Good discussion.

Obviously my point of view comes from being a network... But I do think that a lot of times Merchants and OPMs have a lot more power than they think they have.

There are some Merchants on ShareASale that have utilized our "Feedback" on affiliates - and as a result there are several Affiliates with very poor feedback ratings. The idea here was that Merchants then have the information they need to decide what to do.

Eathan - I believe you are talking about me although I could be wrong. That sounds very much like an answer that I give. I can only add that while it is a very difficult decision to kick an affiliate out for behaviour on one program (while being a top affiliate in another program) - the Merchant again has full power to remove them.

My personal position is that it is my responsibility as a Network to get as much possible information to you (Merchant) about your program and your Affiliates. In some cases we go further than that to remove Affiliates (cloaking, spyware, etc...) - but at all times and at any time you as a Merchant have that option. We added a "3 strikes" policy to further protect Merchants, which is set to go into effect on September 1st. There have been quite a few merchants who have participated in that.

I fully understand the lack of desire to play detective all day, but the reality is that online sales channels have huge opportunities for growth - and at the same time will need watching over. Our efforts to help Merchants navigate this channel are best matched with Merchants equal efforts to grow the kind of program that they want.

The fact still remains that there are a lot of Merchants who accept TM bidding, the waters in that area are a lot muddier than it may appear from one point of view. I have heard and understand the arguments on both sides of this issue...

Meco24 - if you need any help identifying the signs of some of this behaviour, or in removing any of the Affiliates from your program please let me know. I encourage you to utilize the "Report PPC Violation", and "Feedback" on ShareASale as well so that their actions can be reviewed by others.

[cmunns]

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